maven-users mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Thomas Broyer <t.bro...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Date Mon, 06 Jan 2014 22:38:49 GMT
Le 6 janv. 2014 23:25, "Stephen Connolly" <stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com>
a écrit :
>
> On 6 January 2014 22:18, Thomas Broyer <t.broyer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Le 6 janv. 2014 22:34, "Stephen Connolly" <
stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com
> > >
> > a écrit :
> > >
> > > I don't want a religious war. If Gradle or ANT are a better fit for
the
> > way
> > > some people think about building software... well good for them... and
> > the
> > > faster we can help them realise that Maven takes a different tack the
> > > better.
> > >
> > > I happen to believe that the power of Maven comes from being model
driven
> > > rather than procedural, which ultimately allows for a richer IDE
> > > experience, but consequently you lose some flexibility in your build
> > > process. It is a tradeoff I happen to like the Maven balance of, but
I am
> > > not so arrogant to presume that Maven's balance suits everyone.
> > >
> > > The Maven repository has grown beyond just Maven, so that is no
longer a
> > > key differentiator for Maven.
> > >
> > > The differentiator is in the declarative build rather than procedural
> > > build...
> >
> > I disagree (when comparing with Gradle). The differentiator to me is
going
> > beyond the build tool: project management and comprehension tool. Things
> > like the m-release-p, m-scm-p, m-site-p, etc. No other tool has those
> > AFAICT, and not everybody wants or needs them.
> > On the negative side: linear lifecycle, fixed number of classpaths
(scopes)
> > that forces you to use separate modules (not a problem per se) thus put
> > files in separate folder trees (more of an issue, even if it means
losing
> > IDE support), etc. Many of which contribute to making it really hard to
> > migrate from Ant to Maven.
> >
> > > With Ant you have a mostly pure procedural build.
> > >
> > > With Maven you have a mostly pure declarative build.
> > >
> > > With Gradle you have a hodge-podge mix of both.
> > >
> > > (By declarative, I mean <packaging>jar</packaging> is all I need
to
> > > declare, maven knows how everything fits into that)
> >
> > "apply plugin: java" is all you need to declare in Gradle ;-)
> >
> > (OK, you also need a couple other lines to deploy to a Maven or Ivy
repo,
> > but no more than in a POM)
> >
>
> *but* if you see a maven build, you know it pretty much has to be
> declarative...
>
> if you see a gradle build it can add a whole procedural set of steps quite
> trivially on top..

Ack.

> (you can also add procedural stuff to maven, but it is hard and ugly
> because of the syntax and the way maven forces you to work)
>
> Basically I view the main "advantage" of gradle as it's main
> "disadvantage"... others are free to invert that point of view if/as they
> see fit, but I have yet to see the benefits of the flexibility that gradle
> adds... I have only seen downsides... I'll not go ramming my PoV down your
> mouth... as long as you don't try and ram your PoV down mine ;-)

I respect your PoV ;-)

> >
> > > So let's let others go to the tools that suit their tastes, and the
> > faster
> > > that we help them there, the less bitching about how "Maven is crap
> > > (because it doesn't suit my taste)" we will hear.
> > >
> > > It's like marmite: you either love it or hate it!
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6 January 2014 20:08, Russell Gold <russell.gold@oracle.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Several sentences sounds good. But here’s another question.
Comparing
> > > > Maven to ant is almost too easy in terms of advantages. Is gradle
now a
> > > > serious competitor (I had been working on converting an enormous
> > project to
> > > > maven, but the architect decided to switch to gradle, so I am
> > particularly
> > > > sensitive to the issue). I can see some superficial advantages of
> > gradle
> > > > that might appeal to some projects. Is it better to ignore or
address
> > this?
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly <
> > > > stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to
try
> > Maven.
> > > > >> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better
than
> > Ant
> > > > or
> > > > >> whatever they are using now.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts
managed
> > in
> > > > a
> > > > >> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my
application.
> > > > >> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which
> > has
> > > > >> great dependency management features."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than
the
> > > > > procedural philosophy most tools take
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true.
> > > > >> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain
> > this
> > > > one.
> > > > >> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the
time
> > to
> > > > >> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool.
> > > > >> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven,
that
> > would
> > > > >> work.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes that is the idea
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Ron
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant
now
does
> > have
> > > > >>> the ability to use those dependency features.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in
the
sig
> > > > because
> > > > >>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can
make a
one
> > > > sentence
> > > > >>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information
> > unless
> > > > >>> something like:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts
> > managed
> > > > in a
> > > > >>> repository."
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for
this
> > > > >>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People
trying
to
> > > > learn
> > > > >>> how to use it?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Roy.Lyons@cmegroup.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> on
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Siteit
> > > > >>>> says:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven
is:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and
comprehension
> > > > tool."
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what
Maven is.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I would like to submit my short description for review.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build
tool
which
> > has
> > > > >>>> great dependency management features."
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that
at its
core,
> > this
> > > > >>>> is what it really is.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Ron Wheeler
> > > > >> President
> > > > >> Artifact Software Inc
> > > > >> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> > > > >> skype: ronaldmwheeler
> > > > >> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Sent from my phone
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> >

Mime
  • Unnamed multipart/alternative (inline, None, 0 bytes)
View raw message