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From Ron Wheeler <rwhee...@artifact-software.com>
Subject Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Date Tue, 07 Jan 2014 02:41:47 GMT
I am not sure that you want to start a range war in the opening paragraph.
If there is a concise second or third sentence that clearly explains the 
difference between Ant and Maven, it would be a great idea to add that.
If Gradle is likely to be in the running for a new developer, it might 
be interesting to have a sentence explaining the difference. Need to be 
careful not to turn off a new person by an obscure argument that does 
not address the decision points in a way that a new person would understand.

Ron

On 06/01/2014 4:33 PM, Stephen Connolly wrote:
> I don't want a religious war. If Gradle or ANT are a better fit for the way
> some people think about building software... well good for them... and the
> faster we can help them realise that Maven takes a different tack the
> better.
>
> I happen to believe that the power of Maven comes from being model driven
> rather than procedural, which ultimately allows for a richer IDE
> experience, but consequently you lose some flexibility in your build
> process. It is a tradeoff I happen to like the Maven balance of, but I am
> not so arrogant to presume that Maven's balance suits everyone.
>
> The Maven repository has grown beyond just Maven, so that is no longer a
> key differentiator for Maven.
>
> The differentiator is in the declarative build rather than procedural
> build...
>
> With Ant you have a mostly pure procedural build.
>
> With Maven you have a mostly pure declarative build.
>
> With Gradle you have a hodge-podge mix of both.
>
> (By declarative, I mean <packaging>jar</packaging> is all I need to
> declare, maven knows how everything fits into that)
>
> So let's let others go to the tools that suit their tastes, and the faster
> that we help them there, the less bitching about how "Maven is crap
> (because it doesn't suit my taste)" we will hear.
>
> It's like marmite: you either love it or hate it!
>
>
> On 6 January 2014 20:08, Russell Gold <russell.gold@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> Several sentences sounds good. But here’s another question. Comparing
>> Maven to ant is almost too easy in terms of advantages. Is gradle now a
>> serious competitor (I had been working on converting an enormous project to
>> maven, but the architect decided to switch to gradle, so I am particularly
>> sensitive to the issue). I can see some superficial advantages of gradle
>> that might appeal to some projects. Is it better to ignore or address this?
>>
>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly <
>> stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try Maven.
>>>> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better than Ant
>> or
>>>> whatever they are using now.
>>>>
>>>> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask.
>>>>
>>>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in
>> a
>>>> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my application.
>>>> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository.
>>>>
>>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
>>>> great dependency management features."
>>>
>>> I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than the
>>> procedural philosophy most tools take
>>>
>>>
>>>> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true.
>>>> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain this
>> one.
>>>> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the time to
>>>> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool.
>>>> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that would
>>>> work.
>>>
>>> Yes that is the idea
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does have
>>>>> the ability to use those dependency features.
>>>>>
>>>>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig
>> because
>>>>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one
>> sentence
>>>>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information unless
>>>>> something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed
>> in a
>>>>> repository."
>>>>>
>>>>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this
>>>>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to
>> learn
>>>>> how to use it?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Roy.Lyons@cmegroup.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it
>>>>>> says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension
>> tool."
>>>>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to submit my short description for review.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which
has
>>>>>> great dependency management features."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core,
this
>>>>>> is what it really is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>


-- 
Ron Wheeler
President
Artifact Software Inc
email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102


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