Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-maven-users-archive@www.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-maven-users-archive@www.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9E45B100EF for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 01:34:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 6653 invoked by uid 500); 26 Jul 2013 01:34:56 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-maven-users-archive@maven.apache.org Received: (qmail 6479 invoked by uid 500); 26 Jul 2013 01:34:56 -0000 Mailing-List: contact users-help@maven.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: List-Help: List-Post: List-Id: "Maven Users List" Reply-To: "Maven Users List" Delivered-To: mailing list users@maven.apache.org Received: (qmail 6471 invoked by uid 99); 26 Jul 2013 01:34:56 -0000 Received: from athena.apache.org (HELO athena.apache.org) (140.211.11.136) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 01:34:56 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.2 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (athena.apache.org: domain of mgainty@hotmail.com designates 65.55.116.32 as permitted sender) Received: from [65.55.116.32] (HELO blu0-omc1-s21.blu0.hotmail.com) (65.55.116.32) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 01:34:52 +0000 Received: from BLU172-W21 ([65.55.116.9]) by blu0-omc1-s21.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 25 Jul 2013 18:34:31 -0700 X-TMN: [/zfS4lChpowB9ACYzlpVptyJCDduktZJ] X-Originating-Email: [mgainty@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_309a2b1d-3b8d-4e3a-86f7-2ec4e0c50f83_" From: Martin Gainty To: "users@maven.apache.org" Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 21:34:30 -0400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: ,,,,,<51F19A47.1040309@commonjava.org>, MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jul 2013 01:34:31.0054 (UTC) FILETIME=[467AAAE0:01CE89A0] X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org --_309a2b1d-3b8d-4e3a-86f7-2ec4e0c50f83_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Private Sector Usage of Apache code: Sonatype is the second organization (that I know of) to leverage existing A= SF code to engage Paying Customers In last 10 years Paul F (dba WS02) leveraged the entire axis project for "C= ustomised SAAS Solutions for HealthCare as well as Financial Services"=20 WS02's contributions of features and functions were merged back in to axis= code base.. Also WS02 employees constituted +50% effort for re-architecture from Axis1 = to Axis2 (quite similar to the way Sonatype contributes Architecture=2C Doc and code= back to Maven) Subsidising ASF volunteer efforts: As some of us age and when (and if) the government pittance starts to kick = in (hopefully BEFORE Govt pittance money runs out) I would expect even greater Apache participation by those committers on bug= fixes=2C support=2C documentation as well as fix and testing new features a= nd functions =20 Social Media: Someone mentioned the freshest maven committers *should* maintain feeds to= /from Social Media=20 I could see support updates to twitter (with some manner of RSS feed?) not sure if support feeds are happening now to Twitter or another provider = ? Architecture changes should be contributed to existing arch doc . Resulting architecture doc updates to Social Media avenues *could* possibly= be somehow uploaded to Facebook =20 Does Maven have a facebook account? =20 My 2 cents=2C Martin=20 ______________________________________________=20 =20 > Date: Thu=2C 25 Jul 2013 16:55:39 -0500 > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want = the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/t= runk/content/markdown/project-roles.md) > From: pbenedict@apache.org > To: jdcasey@commonjava.org=3B stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com > CC: dev@maven.apache.org=3B users@maven.apache.org >=20 > Agreed. I'll tip my hand and give my opinion: PMC members should have an > "Apache first" mentality. They are gatekeepers and guardians of their > project. Spinning off critical code to other OSS organizations should be > frowned upon -- it splits the development and wider community into smalle= r > pieces. >=20 > NB: My original response was just criticism of the commitment wording. It= 's > nice to say what commitments PMC members should have=2C but if there's no= way > to enforce it=2C it puts into question why the commitments are even expec= ted. > AFAIK=2C merit at Apache is forever -- you can't have it undone. If someo= ne > loses their "Apache first" spirit and begins critical development > elsewhere=2C what can be done about it? Are there any practical recourses= ? I > don't think there is which is why Maven development has that problem toda= y. >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu=2C Jul 25=2C 2013 at 4:36 PM=2C John Casey wrote: >=20 > > On 7/25/13 4:17 PM=2C Paul Benedict wrote: > > > >> Stephen=2C those are great questions. Yet=2C I think these questions a= re > >> riding > >> an assumption that PMC members are solely volunteering at Apache=2C be= cause > >> the emphasis (as I interpret your words) is to place the Apache projec= t > >> first/above other external contributions. Isn't that the heart of this > >> debate? A person who solely contributes to Apache and no other OS > >> organizations has no divided loyalties -- they do all their work here.= But > >> what happens when contributions are here and elsewhere? I ask > >> rhetorically=2C > >> to solicit answers=2C of course... and I see where this is going and w= hat > >> historical processes within Maven are being addressed. > >> > > > > > > I don't think it's about whether you contribute elsewhere or not. It's > > about whether you expect to do a ton of work outside the community here= =2C > > outside the commit logs and the review=2C in order to avoid the discuss= ion > > and potential for veto. > > > > Working in this way opens the possibility for changing the rules for wh= o > > gets to contribute=2C especially when code diverges for long periods th= en > > gets reconciled with a massive rebase. > > > > ASF is supposed to be about more than code. We're supposed to be workin= g > > together on this project. I feel like the above hamstrings that whole > > process. > > > > And note: I'm only suggesting that the PMC - who is supposed to have th= e > > long-term interests of *this* project at heart - be held to a higher > > standard=2C to provide an example for the rest of the project. This is = not > > saying you're stuck working solely within Maven just because you're on = the > > PMC=3B it's saying that you should promote the health of the community = by > > making sure the processes in place work as well as possible. > > > > ASF membership is supposed to be reserved for those who "get" the Apach= e > > Way=2C and I've heard it said that PMC membership should imply ASF > > membership. IMO=2C working for extended periods outside of the venues f= or our > > community is not consistent with having the best interests of this proj= ect > > in mind. > > > > > > > >> > >> On Thu=2C Jul 25=2C 2013 at 4:05 PM=2C Stephen Connolly < > >> stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.**com > > >> wrote: > >> > >> Perhaps we could reframe the question a little then (as people seem t= o be > >>> testing hung up on the committed wording)... > >>> > >>> Should the PMC encourage people experimenting on new improvements to > >>> Maven > >>> to do that work at the ASF? And if so=2C should they then practice wh= at > >>> they > >>> preach=2C and ensure that any experiments with Maven take place on th= e ASF > >>> SCM servers (at least once such experiments become semi-serious or > >>> progress > >>> enough not to cause egg-on-face syndrome)? > >>> > >>> Shoud the PMC promote other Apache projects=2C or moving non-Apache > >>> projects > >>> to Apache? (Right now=2C to work on an issue in core and effect the c= hange > >>> yourself you may need to establish merit with: Apache Maven=2C Eclips= e > >>> Sisu=2C > >>> Eclipse Aether=2C Plexus=2C Apache Commons=2C Classworlds=2C etc. Now= it may be > >>> fine with half of these at Eclipse and the ther half here... Or maybe > >>> not... But that is a lot of projects where you need to establish meri= t > >>> and > >>> perhaps maintain merit just to be able to commit directly (which > >>> sometimes > >>> is the only way to effect the type of cross system changes that some = of > >>> our > >>> more obscure bugs may require... GIT makes this less of a requirement= =2C as > >>> patches on SVN are a PITA=2C though) ) > >>> > >>> These types of questions need resolution as they will=2C further down= the > >>> road=2C rise up again and cause wounds... Eg logback vs log4j2 is one= that > >>> simmers at the edge (any time anyone mentioned coloured loggers) > >>> > >>> -Stephen > >>> > >>> On Thursday=2C 25 July 2013=2C Paul Benedict wrote: > >>> > >>> I don't think it is possible to force volunteer efforts and/or limit > >>>> development elsewhere. The idea of supporting a project is a vague > >>>> > >>> notion. > >>> > >>>> I have my opinions too but this language is clearly unenforceable an= d > >>>> impractical. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers=2C > >>>> Paul > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu=2C Jul 25=2C 2013 at 9:30 AM=2C Markus Karg = wrote: > >>>> > >>>> As a Maven user I think that everybody who is working on a project > >>>>> > >>>> should > >>> > >>>> behave the same. Hence=2C I would say=2C PMC members should rather > >>>>> > >>>> certainly > >>> > >>>> demonstrate how to live the community rules. > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- > >>>>> Von: Stephen Connolly [mailto:stephen.alan.connolly@**gmail.com > >>>>> ] > >>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag=2C 25. Juli 2013 15:16 > >>>>> An: Maven Users List=3B Maven Developers List > >>>>> Betreff: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we wan= t > >>>>> > >>>> the > >>> > >>>> Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - > >>>>> /maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/project-roles.md) > >>>>> > >>>>> There are two schools of thought amongst the current members of thi= s > >>>>> projects PMC. > >>>>> > >>>>> Without wanting to deliberately tip my hand and reveal where my opi= nion > >>>>> is=2C we would like to solicit the opinions if the community that w= e > >>>>> > >>>> serve. > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> Please give us your thoughts. > >>>>> > >>>>> The topic is essentially: > >>>>> > >>>>> Do you want the members of the Maven PMC to be social leaders of th= e > >>>>> > >>>> Maven > >>>> > >>>>> community=2C who's actions demonstrate the best community behaviour= ? > >>>>> > >>>>> The alternative is that members of the Maven PMC are here purely to > >>>>> complete the legal requirements that an Apache TLP has delegated to > >>>>> > >>>> PMCs > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> This is not black and white... The answer can be grey... And everyo= ne > >>>>> > >>>> is > >>> > >>>> human so can make mistakes... > >>>>> > >>>>> So community=2C what are you expecting? > >>>>> > >>>>> - Stephen Connolly > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thursday=2C 25 July 2013=2C wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Author: jdcasey > >>>>>> Date: Wed Jul 24 23:21:58 2013 > >>>>>> New Revision: 1506778 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> URL: http://svn.apache.org/r1506778 > >>>>>> Log: > >>>>>> Adding section on PMC standards of community commitment > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Modified: > >>>>>> maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/project-roles.md > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Modified: maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/project-roles.md > >>>>>> URL: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/**maven/site/trunk/content/** > >>> markdown/project > >>> > >>>> -roles.md?rev=3D1506778&r1=3D**1506777&r2=3D1506778&view=3Ddiff > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D**=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D** > >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>> > >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>>>>> --- maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/project-roles.md (original= ) > >>>>>> +++ maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/project-roles.md Wed Jul 2= 4 > >>>>>> 23:21:58 2013 > >>>>>> @@ -176=2C6 +176=2C29 @@ The Project Management Committee has the > >>>>>> * Voting on release artifacts. > >>>>>> * > >>>>>> > >>>>>> +#### Standards for Community Commitment > >>>>>> + > >>>>>> +In the spirit of supporting the health of our community=2C Projec= t > >>>>>> +Management Committee members refrain from actions that subvert th= e > >>>>>> +functioning of the committee itself. > >>>>>> + > >>>>>> +First=2C Project Management Committee members should not maintain > >>>>>> long-running > >>>>>> +forks of Maven code outside of the project itself. Making > >>>>>> > >>>>> significant > >>> > >>>> +changes to Maven code outside of the project displays a lack of > >>>>>> +investment in the community. Additionally=2C attempting to > >>>>>> > >>>>> re-integrate > >>> > >>>> +a large number of code changes in bulk overwhelms the ability of > >>>>>> +volunteers in the community to review (and potentially veto) the > >>>>>> +changes. This effectively thwarts the policing function of the PM= C. > >>>>>> + > >>>>>> +Second=2C Project Management Committee members should not divert = work > >>>>>> +on redesigning=2C reimplementing=2C or improving Maven code to > >>>>>> +alternative projects outside of this community for the purposes o= f > >>>>>> +reintroducing them as replacement for existing Maven code. While > >>>>>> +there is a danger he> To unsubscribe=2C e-mail: > >>>>>> > >>>>> dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.**org > >>>> > >>>>> For additional commands=2C e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Cheers=2C > >>>> Paul > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Sent from my phone > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > John Casey > > GitHub - http://github.com/jdcasey > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Cheers=2C > Paul = --_309a2b1d-3b8d-4e3a-86f7-2ec4e0c50f83_--