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From Ron Wheeler <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/
Date Fri, 26 Jul 2013 02:53:49 GMT
On 25/07/2013 5:32 PM, Stephen Connolly wrote:
> On 25 July 2013 22:17, Paul Benedict <> wrote:
>> Stephen, those are great questions. Yet, I think these questions are riding
>> an assumption that PMC members are solely volunteering at Apache, because
>> the emphasis (as I interpret your words) is to place the Apache project
>> first/above other external contributions. Isn't that the heart of this
>> debate? A person who solely contributes to Apache and no other OS
>> organizations has no divided loyalties -- they do all their work here. But
>> what happens when contributions are here and elsewhere?
> If they feel they cannot resolve any conflict between their role on the PMC
> and any responsibilities the Maven community decide are part and parcel of
> that role with their roles in other projects, then quite simply they can
> just step down from the PMC and remain a committer. There is no shame in so
> doing.
> Which brings us back to what does the community expect from its PMC?
I can only speak for me.
I expect the committee to:
- Maintain a coherent roadmap that makes sense to the majority of the 
- To communicate the roadmap to the community and listen to the feedback
- To ensure that the releases are complete - code tested and 
documentation updated
- To coordinate the activities of the committers to ensure that they are 
meeting the technical standards and completing the release functionality 
and docs according to the agreed schedule.
- To ensure that the project committers are enjoying working together 
and that disagreements are worked on in a professional way.


>> I ask rhetorically,
>> to solicit answers, of course... and I see where this is going and what
>> historical processes within Maven are being addressed.
>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Stephen Connolly <
>>> wrote:
>>> Perhaps we could reframe the question a little then (as people seem to be
>>> testing hung up on the committed wording)...
>>> Should the PMC encourage people experimenting on new improvements to
>> Maven
>>> to do that work at the ASF? And if so, should they then practice what
>> they
>>> preach, and ensure that any experiments with Maven take place on the ASF
>>> SCM servers (at least once such experiments become semi-serious or
>> progress
>>> enough not to cause egg-on-face syndrome)?
>>> Shoud the PMC promote other Apache projects, or moving non-Apache
>> projects
>>> to Apache? (Right now, to work on an issue in core and effect the change
>>> yourself you may need to establish merit with: Apache Maven, Eclipse
>> Sisu,
>>> Eclipse Aether, Plexus, Apache Commons, Classworlds, etc. Now it may be
>>> fine with half of these at Eclipse and the ther half here... Or maybe
>>> not... But that is a lot of projects where you need to establish merit
>> and
>>> perhaps maintain merit just to be able to commit directly (which
>> sometimes
>>> is the only way to effect the type of cross system changes that some of
>> our
>>> more obscure bugs may require... GIT makes this less of a requirement, as
>>> patches on SVN are a PITA, though) )
>>> These types of questions need resolution as they will, further down the
>>> road, rise up again and cause wounds... Eg logback vs log4j2 is one that
>>> simmers at the edge (any time anyone mentioned coloured loggers)
>>> -Stephen
>>> On Thursday, 25 July 2013, Paul Benedict wrote:
>>>> I don't think it is possible to force volunteer efforts and/or limit
>>>> development elsewhere. The idea of supporting a project is a vague
>>> notion.
>>>> I have my opinions too but this language is clearly unenforceable and
>>>> impractical.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Paul
>>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Markus Karg <> wrote:
>>>>> As a Maven user I think that everybody who is working on a project
>>> should
>>>>> behave the same. Hence, I would say, PMC members should rather
>>> certainly
>>>>> demonstrate how to live the community rules.
>>>>> -----Urspr√ľngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>> Von: Stephen Connolly []
>>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013 15:16
>>>>> An: Maven Users List; Maven Developers List
>>>>> Betreff: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want
>>> the
>>>>> Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 -
>>>>> /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/
>>>>> There are two schools of thought amongst the current members of this
>>>>> projects PMC.
>>>>> Without wanting to deliberately tip my hand and reveal where my
>> opinion
>>>>> is, we would like to solicit the opinions if the community that we
>>> serve.
>>>>> Please give us your thoughts.
>>>>> The topic is essentially:
>>>>> Do you want the members of the Maven PMC to be social leaders of the
>>>> Maven
>>>>> community, who's actions demonstrate the best community behaviour?
>>>>> The alternative is that members of the Maven PMC are here purely to
>>>>> complete the legal requirements that an Apache TLP has delegated to
>>> PMCs
>>>>> This is not black and white... The answer can be grey... And everyone
>>> is
>>>>> human so can make mistakes...
>>>>> So community, what are you expecting?
>>>>> - Stephen Connolly
>>>>> On Thursday, 25 July 2013, wrote:
>>>>>> Author: jdcasey
>>>>>> Date: Wed Jul 24 23:21:58 2013
>>>>>> New Revision: 1506778
>>>>>> URL:
>>>>>> Log:
>>>>>> Adding section on PMC standards of community commitment
>>>>>> Modified:
>>>>>>      maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/
>>>>>> Modified: maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/
>>>>>> URL:
>>> ======================================================================
>>>>>> ========
>>>>>> --- maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/ (original)
>>>>>> +++ maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/ Wed Jul 24
>>>>>> 23:21:58 2013
>>>>>> @@ -176,6 +176,29 @@ The Project Management Committee has the
>>>>>>   * Voting on release artifacts.
>>>>>>   * <!-- TODO: get the rest of these -->
>>>>>> +#### Standards for Community Commitment
>>>>>> +
>>>>>> +In the spirit of supporting the health of our community, Project
>>>>>> +Management Committee members refrain from actions that subvert the
>>>>>> +functioning of the committee itself.
>>>>>> +
>>>>>> +First, Project Management Committee members should not maintain
>>>>>> long-running
>>>>>> +forks of Maven code outside of the project itself. Making
>>> significant
>>>>>> +changes to Maven code outside of the project displays a lack of
>>>>>> +investment in the community. Additionally, attempting to
>>> re-integrate
>>>>>> +a large number of code changes in bulk overwhelms the ability of
>>>>>> +volunteers in the community to review (and potentially veto) the
>>>>>> +changes. This effectively thwarts the policing function of the
>> PMC.
>>>>>> +
>>>>>> +Second, Project Management Committee members should not divert
>> work
>>>>>> +on redesigning, reimplementing, or improving Maven code to
>>>>>> +alternative projects outside of this community for the purposes
>>>>>> +reintroducing them as replacement for existing Maven code. While
>>>>>> +there is a danger he> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>> <javascript:;>

Ron Wheeler
Artifact Software Inc
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102

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