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From Ron Wheeler <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/
Date Fri, 26 Jul 2013 02:18:07 GMT
Maven is open source and anyone can do whatever they want with it.
That is the whole point of the Apache license.

If the code splits off and a new open source product emerges that is 
better than Maven, then we all win.
To prevent this, the Maven PMC has to make the right choices about the 
Maven roadmap and make sure that the committers see a vision that they 
regard as worth devoting time to.

If the code splits off and a commercial product emerges, how does that 
affect Maven? Why would it be better if the person was not on the PMC?

If the code splits and the PMC was right about the proper strategy, the 
fork will die a natural death or become a niche solution which may take 
pressure of the Maven PMC to handle special cases that are not important 
to the main user community.

The people who want to pursue a fork will do that anyway so whether they 
stay in the PMC or do not, makes no difference to the Maven team.

The wider community will go with the better package so the Maven PMC has 
to make good choices.


On 25/07/2013 5:55 PM, Paul Benedict wrote:
> Agreed. I'll tip my hand and give my opinion: PMC members should have an
> "Apache first" mentality. They are gatekeepers and guardians of their
> project. Spinning off critical code to other OSS organizations should be
> frowned upon -- it splits the development and wider community into smaller
> pieces.
> NB: My original response was just criticism of the commitment wording. It's
> nice to say what commitments PMC members should have, but if there's no way
> to enforce it, it puts into question why the commitments are even expected.
> AFAIK, merit at Apache is forever -- you can't have it undone. If someone
> loses their "Apache first" spirit and begins critical development
> elsewhere, what can be done about it? Are there any practical recourses? I
> don't think there is which is why Maven development has that problem today.
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 4:36 PM, John Casey <> wrote:
>> On 7/25/13 4:17 PM, Paul Benedict wrote:
>>> Stephen, those are great questions. Yet, I think these questions are
>>> riding
>>> an assumption that PMC members are solely volunteering at Apache, because
>>> the emphasis (as I interpret your words) is to place the Apache project
>>> first/above other external contributions. Isn't that the heart of this
>>> debate? A person who solely contributes to Apache and no other OS
>>> organizations has no divided loyalties -- they do all their work here. But
>>> what happens when contributions are here and elsewhere? I ask
>>> rhetorically,
>>> to solicit answers, of course... and I see where this is going and what
>>> historical processes within Maven are being addressed.
>> I don't think it's about whether you contribute elsewhere or not. It's
>> about whether you expect to do a ton of work outside the community here,
>> outside the commit logs and the review, in order to avoid the discussion
>> and potential for veto.
>> Working in this way opens the possibility for changing the rules for who
>> gets to contribute, especially when code diverges for long periods then
>> gets reconciled with a massive rebase.
>> ASF is supposed to be about more than code. We're supposed to be working
>> together on this project. I feel like the above hamstrings that whole
>> process.
>> And note: I'm only suggesting that the PMC - who is supposed to have the
>> long-term interests of *this* project at heart - be held to a higher
>> standard, to provide an example for the rest of the project. This is not
>> saying you're stuck working solely within Maven just because you're on the
>> PMC; it's saying that you should promote the health of the community by
>> making sure the processes in place work as well as possible.
>> ASF membership is supposed to be reserved for those who "get" the Apache
>> Way, and I've heard it said that PMC membership should imply ASF
>> membership. IMO, working for extended periods outside of the venues for our
>> community is not consistent with having the best interests of this project
>> in mind.
>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Stephen Connolly <
>>> stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.**com <>>
>>> wrote:
>>>   Perhaps we could reframe the question a little then (as people seem to be
>>>> testing hung up on the committed wording)...
>>>> Should the PMC encourage people experimenting on new improvements to
>>>> Maven
>>>> to do that work at the ASF? And if so, should they then practice what
>>>> they
>>>> preach, and ensure that any experiments with Maven take place on the ASF
>>>> SCM servers (at least once such experiments become semi-serious or
>>>> progress
>>>> enough not to cause egg-on-face syndrome)?
>>>> Shoud the PMC promote other Apache projects, or moving non-Apache
>>>> projects
>>>> to Apache? (Right now, to work on an issue in core and effect the change
>>>> yourself you may need to establish merit with: Apache Maven, Eclipse
>>>> Sisu,
>>>> Eclipse Aether, Plexus, Apache Commons, Classworlds, etc. Now it may be
>>>> fine with half of these at Eclipse and the ther half here... Or maybe
>>>> not... But that is a lot of projects where you need to establish merit
>>>> and
>>>> perhaps maintain merit just to be able to commit directly (which
>>>> sometimes
>>>> is the only way to effect the type of cross system changes that some of
>>>> our
>>>> more obscure bugs may require... GIT makes this less of a requirement, as
>>>> patches on SVN are a PITA, though) )
>>>> These types of questions need resolution as they will, further down the
>>>> road, rise up again and cause wounds... Eg logback vs log4j2 is one that
>>>> simmers at the edge (any time anyone mentioned coloured loggers)
>>>> -Stephen
>>>> On Thursday, 25 July 2013, Paul Benedict wrote:
>>>>   I don't think it is possible to force volunteer efforts and/or limit
>>>>> development elsewhere. The idea of supporting a project is a vague
>>>> notion.
>>>>> I have my opinions too but this language is clearly unenforceable and
>>>>> impractical.
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Paul
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Markus Karg <> wrote:
>>>>>   As a Maven user I think that everybody who is working on a project
>>>>> should
>>>>> behave the same. Hence, I would say, PMC members should rather
>>>>> certainly
>>>>> demonstrate how to live the community rules.
>>>>>> -----Urspr√ľngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>> Von: Stephen Connolly [mailto:stephen.alan.connolly@**<>
>>>>>> ]
>>>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013 15:16
>>>>>> An: Maven Users List; Maven Developers List
>>>>>> Betreff: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want
>>>>> the
>>>>> Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 -
>>>>>> /maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/
>>>>>> There are two schools of thought amongst the current members of this
>>>>>> projects PMC.
>>>>>> Without wanting to deliberately tip my hand and reveal where my opinion
>>>>>> is, we would like to solicit the opinions if the community that we
>>>>> serve.
>>>>>> Please give us your thoughts.
>>>>>> The topic is essentially:
>>>>>> Do you want the members of the Maven PMC to be social leaders of
>>>>> Maven
>>>>>> community, who's actions demonstrate the best community behaviour?
>>>>>> The alternative is that members of the Maven PMC are here purely
>>>>>> complete the legal requirements that an Apache TLP has delegated
>>>>> PMCs
>>>>>> This is not black and white... The answer can be grey... And everyone
>>>>> is
>>>>> human so can make mistakes...
>>>>>> So community, what are you expecting?
>>>>>> - Stephen Connolly
>>>>>> On Thursday, 25 July 2013, wrote:
>>>>>>   Author: jdcasey
>>>>>>> Date: Wed Jul 24 23:21:58 2013
>>>>>>> New Revision: 1506778
>>>>>>> URL:
>>>>>>> Log:
>>>>>>> Adding section on PMC standards of community commitment
>>>>>>> Modified:
>>>>>>>       maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/
>>>>>>> Modified: maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/
>>>>>>> URL:
>>>> markdown/project<>
>>>>>>>   ==============================**==============================**
>>>> ==========
>>>>> ========
>>>>>>> --- maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/ (original)
>>>>>>> +++ maven/site/trunk/content/**markdown/ Wed
Jul 24
>>>>>>> 23:21:58 2013
>>>>>>> @@ -176,6 +176,29 @@ The Project Management Committee has the
>>>>>>>    * Voting on release artifacts.
>>>>>>>    * <!-- TODO: get the rest of these -->
>>>>>>> +#### Standards for Community Commitment
>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>> +In the spirit of supporting the health of our community, Project
>>>>>>> +Management Committee members refrain from actions that subvert
>>>>>>> +functioning of the committee itself.
>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>> +First, Project Management Committee members should not maintain
>>>>>>> long-running
>>>>>>> +forks of Maven code outside of the project itself. Making
>>>>>> significant
>>>>> +changes to Maven code outside of the project displays a lack of
>>>>>>> +investment in the community. Additionally, attempting to
>>>>>> re-integrate
>>>>> +a large number of code changes in bulk overwhelms the ability of
>>>>>>> +volunteers in the community to review (and potentially veto)
>>>>>>> +changes. This effectively thwarts the policing function of the
>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>> +Second, Project Management Committee members should not divert
>>>>>>> +on redesigning, reimplementing, or improving Maven code to
>>>>>>> +alternative projects outside of this community for the purposes
>>>>>>> +reintroducing them as replacement for existing Maven code. While
>>>>>>> +there is a danger he> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>>>> dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.**org <><javascript:;>
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>>> <javascript:;>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Paul
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my phone
>> --
>> John Casey
>> GitHub -

Ron Wheeler
Artifact Software Inc
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102

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