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From John Casey <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/
Date Thu, 25 Jul 2013 21:36:07 GMT
On 7/25/13 4:17 PM, Paul Benedict wrote:
> Stephen, those are great questions. Yet, I think these questions are riding
> an assumption that PMC members are solely volunteering at Apache, because
> the emphasis (as I interpret your words) is to place the Apache project
> first/above other external contributions. Isn't that the heart of this
> debate? A person who solely contributes to Apache and no other OS
> organizations has no divided loyalties -- they do all their work here. But
> what happens when contributions are here and elsewhere? I ask rhetorically,
> to solicit answers, of course... and I see where this is going and what
> historical processes within Maven are being addressed.

I don't think it's about whether you contribute elsewhere or not. It's 
about whether you expect to do a ton of work outside the community here, 
outside the commit logs and the review, in order to avoid the discussion 
and potential for veto.

Working in this way opens the possibility for changing the rules for who 
gets to contribute, especially when code diverges for long periods then 
gets reconciled with a massive rebase.

ASF is supposed to be about more than code. We're supposed to be working 
together on this project. I feel like the above hamstrings that whole 

And note: I'm only suggesting that the PMC - who is supposed to have the 
long-term interests of *this* project at heart - be held to a higher 
standard, to provide an example for the rest of the project. This is not 
saying you're stuck working solely within Maven just because you're on 
the PMC; it's saying that you should promote the health of the community 
by making sure the processes in place work as well as possible.

ASF membership is supposed to be reserved for those who "get" the Apache 
Way, and I've heard it said that PMC membership should imply ASF 
membership. IMO, working for extended periods outside of the venues for 
our community is not consistent with having the best interests of this 
project in mind.

> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Stephen Connolly <
>> wrote:
>> Perhaps we could reframe the question a little then (as people seem to be
>> testing hung up on the committed wording)...
>> Should the PMC encourage people experimenting on new improvements to Maven
>> to do that work at the ASF? And if so, should they then practice what they
>> preach, and ensure that any experiments with Maven take place on the ASF
>> SCM servers (at least once such experiments become semi-serious or progress
>> enough not to cause egg-on-face syndrome)?
>> Shoud the PMC promote other Apache projects, or moving non-Apache projects
>> to Apache? (Right now, to work on an issue in core and effect the change
>> yourself you may need to establish merit with: Apache Maven, Eclipse Sisu,
>> Eclipse Aether, Plexus, Apache Commons, Classworlds, etc. Now it may be
>> fine with half of these at Eclipse and the ther half here... Or maybe
>> not... But that is a lot of projects where you need to establish merit and
>> perhaps maintain merit just to be able to commit directly (which sometimes
>> is the only way to effect the type of cross system changes that some of our
>> more obscure bugs may require... GIT makes this less of a requirement, as
>> patches on SVN are a PITA, though) )
>> These types of questions need resolution as they will, further down the
>> road, rise up again and cause wounds... Eg logback vs log4j2 is one that
>> simmers at the edge (any time anyone mentioned coloured loggers)
>> -Stephen
>> On Thursday, 25 July 2013, Paul Benedict wrote:
>>> I don't think it is possible to force volunteer efforts and/or limit
>>> development elsewhere. The idea of supporting a project is a vague
>> notion.
>>> I have my opinions too but this language is clearly unenforceable and
>>> impractical.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Paul
>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Markus Karg <> wrote:
>>>> As a Maven user I think that everybody who is working on a project
>> should
>>>> behave the same. Hence, I would say, PMC members should rather
>> certainly
>>>> demonstrate how to live the community rules.
>>>> -----Urspr√ľngliche Nachricht-----
>>>> Von: Stephen Connolly []
>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013 15:16
>>>> An: Maven Users List; Maven Developers List
>>>> Betreff: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want
>> the
>>>> Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 -
>>>> /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/
>>>> There are two schools of thought amongst the current members of this
>>>> projects PMC.
>>>> Without wanting to deliberately tip my hand and reveal where my opinion
>>>> is, we would like to solicit the opinions if the community that we
>> serve.
>>>> Please give us your thoughts.
>>>> The topic is essentially:
>>>> Do you want the members of the Maven PMC to be social leaders of the
>>> Maven
>>>> community, who's actions demonstrate the best community behaviour?
>>>> The alternative is that members of the Maven PMC are here purely to
>>>> complete the legal requirements that an Apache TLP has delegated to
>> PMCs
>>>> This is not black and white... The answer can be grey... And everyone
>> is
>>>> human so can make mistakes...
>>>> So community, what are you expecting?
>>>> - Stephen Connolly
>>>> On Thursday, 25 July 2013, wrote:
>>>>> Author: jdcasey
>>>>> Date: Wed Jul 24 23:21:58 2013
>>>>> New Revision: 1506778
>>>>> URL:
>>>>> Log:
>>>>> Adding section on PMC standards of community commitment
>>>>> Modified:
>>>>>      maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/
>>>>> Modified: maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/
>>>>> URL:
>> ======================================================================
>>>>> ========
>>>>> --- maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/ (original)
>>>>> +++ maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/ Wed Jul 24
>>>>> 23:21:58 2013
>>>>> @@ -176,6 +176,29 @@ The Project Management Committee has the
>>>>>   * Voting on release artifacts.
>>>>>   * <!-- TODO: get the rest of these -->
>>>>> +#### Standards for Community Commitment
>>>>> +
>>>>> +In the spirit of supporting the health of our community, Project
>>>>> +Management Committee members refrain from actions that subvert the
>>>>> +functioning of the committee itself.
>>>>> +
>>>>> +First, Project Management Committee members should not maintain
>>>>> long-running
>>>>> +forks of Maven code outside of the project itself. Making
>> significant
>>>>> +changes to Maven code outside of the project displays a lack of
>>>>> +investment in the community. Additionally, attempting to
>> re-integrate
>>>>> +a large number of code changes in bulk overwhelms the ability of
>>>>> +volunteers in the community to review (and potentially veto) the
>>>>> +changes. This effectively thwarts the policing function of the PMC.
>>>>> +
>>>>> +Second, Project Management Committee members should not divert work
>>>>> +on redesigning, reimplementing, or improving Maven code to
>>>>> +alternative projects outside of this community for the purposes of
>>>>> +reintroducing them as replacement for existing Maven code. While
>>>>> +there is a danger he> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>> Paul
>> --
>> Sent from my phone

John Casey
GitHub -

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