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From Jason van Zyl <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/
Date Thu, 25 Jul 2013 15:16:38 GMT
So what's outlined in those paragraphs have counter examples at the ASF. I do not believe it
is a bad thing to have alternative distributions or forks, and it doesn't matter where they
are. What you are saying is that committers are obliged to share all their work with other
committers. Which is more coercion than a matter of choice. For all work that happens within
the bounds of the ASF absolutely. Core changes should not be made projects without discussion.
That's a good rule and helps with stability. For work that happens outside the bounds of the
ASF an author is obliged to do nothing of the sort and the assert as much is absurd quite
honestly. What right does the ASF have over work that is not done at Apache?

In fact there are people on the ASF Board who belong to companies that have long standing
forks and/or alternative distributions of ASF projects. Look at Hadoop: there are two companies
that have people on PMCs who maintain alternative distributions with code that does not exist
in standard distributions. Both Cloudera and HortonWorks maintain versions of Hadoop that
are not compatible and/or have different code than the version from Apache. There is selective
patching and additions made to try and provide a better distribution of Hadoop. I don't think
this is a bad thing. This also happens with Cassandra and the people who work at Datastax
where an alternative distribution is made. I don't know as much about what is in those distributions
insofar as code that doesn't exist in the standard Apache distribution. Again, I don't think
this is a bad thing. I'm sure they would all tell you that they are trying to make a better
version of said project, they work with customers, work at a different pace and hope to integrate
their work back in later if possible.

If this is a sideways attempt to address what I'm doing in Tesla, which is what it appears
like to me, then just start a discussion on the dev list. Happy to discuss it.

But if someone posits that all work related to an Apache project has to be done at Apache,
then I will say that is a ridiculous supposition and you can find ten counter examples in
ten minutes if you went looking.

On Jul 25, 2013, at 10:31 AM, Stephen Connolly <> wrote:

> On Thursday, 25 July 2013, Curtis Rueden wrote:
>> Hi Stephen and everyone,
>> I largely agree with Nigel, and would add that in general, bureaucratic
>> rules prohibiting various (often technically and/or socially sound) actions
>> such as forking are a great way to ensure that skilled people distance
>> themselves from the organization (i.e., quit the PMC, decline to join,
>> etc.). You will be left with only bureaucrats who can tolerate those
>> restrictions, and worse, create even more of them.
>> Of course, there should be good, publicly stated reasons for long-running
>> forks.
> I will not speak for the author of the proposed revision, but my
> understanding of the intent is that these forks should be hosted on ASF
> hardware in public and as part of our community.
> It's not about no forking, but allowing the committers to have an ongoing
> view of things in the community.
> Any committer is free to edit the wording if they want right now... The doc
> is a work in progress proposal
>> Merging to mainline is ideal but not always practical in the real
>> world. Developers need the freedom to experiment, even (perhaps especially)
>> when in active community positions such as the PMC.
>> That said, it is certainly the responsibility of those on the PMC to act as
>> community leaders via best practices. But enforcing that in writing, at
>> least as the current proposal does, seems very counterproductive to me.
>> Regards,
>> Curtis
>> On Jul 25, 2013 8:59 AM, "Nigel Magnay" <> wrote:
>>> That whole section I find pretty bizarre.
>>> - Apache is about (open-source) software.
>>> - Writing code is *good*.
>>> - Forks are *good*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> I'm put in mind of Linus' talk about why git distribution is so
>> important -
>>> that 'if you don't think I'm doing a good job, then you can just take
>> your
>>> code from another maintainer. *That's* what keeps a project honest and
>>> responsive to the users.
>>> I would have thought that the kinds of people who are interested in
>> writing
>>> maven-esque code would be some of the people you'd want on a PMC. If they
>>> have a "long running fork" or a "reimplementation", surely they would be
>>> lobbying for its integration? Merging is also good. If, despite this,
>>> they're choosing to do this elsewhere, and/or are having trouble merging
>>> projects in, isn't that a pretty sad indictment for the health of the
>>> project? Isn't it a bit like saying "boo-hoo, those that are doing the
>>> actual work might go work in their own sandpit if we won't play ball,
>> let's
>>> ex-communicate them" ?
>>> Unless (as some have suspected for a while) Apache isn't about software
>>> anymore, it's about the continued existence of Apache (cfex:
>> OpenOffice).-
>>> a political edifice where projects go to die. That's certainly what those
>>> added paragraphs say to me.
>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 2:16 PM, Stephen Connolly <
>>>> wrote:
>>>> There are two schools of thought amongst the current members of this
>>>> projects PMC.
>>>> Without wanting to deliberately tip my hand and reveal where my opinion
>>> is,
>>>> we would like to solicit the opinions if the community that we serve.
>>>> Please give us your thoughts.
>>>> The topic is essentially:
>>>> Do you want the members of the Maven PMC to be social leaders of the
>>> Maven
>>>> community, who's actions demonstrate the best community behaviour?
>>>> The alternative is that members of the Maven PMC are here purely to
>>>> complete the legal requirements that an Apache TLP has delegated to
>> PMCs
>>>> This is not black and white... The answer can be grey... And everyone
>> is
>>>> human so can make mistakes...
>>>> So community, what are you expecting?
>>>> - Stephen Connolly
>>>> On Thursday, 25 July 2013, wrote:
>>>>> Author: jdcasey
>>>>> Date: Wed Jul 24 23:21:58 2013
>>>>> New Revision: 1506778
>>>>> URL:
>>>>> Log:
>>>>> Adding section on PMC standards of community commitment
>>>>> Modified:
>>>>>    maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/
>>>>> Modified: maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/
>>>>> URL:
>> ==============================================================================
>>>>> --- maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/ (original)
>>>>> +++ maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/ Wed Jul 24
>>>>> 23:21:58 2013
>>>>> @@ -176,6 +176,29 @@ The Project Management Committee has the
>>>>> * Voting on release artifacts.
>>>>> * <!-- TODO: get the rest of these -->
>>>>> +#### Standards for Community Commitment
>>>>> +
> -- 
> Sent from my phone



Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that
the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

 -- John Kenneth Galbraith

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