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From Ron Wheeler <>
Subject Re: Jar file not in maven
Date Wed, 30 Jan 2013 22:16:08 GMT
On 30/01/2013 4:54 PM, Joachim Durchholz wrote:
> Am 30.01.2013 16:14, schrieb Ron Wheeler:
>> You are arguing with the guys who wrote Maven and are responsible for
>> maintaining it.
> Should I stand in awe from that?
> I doubt it.
> I have seen many holes punched into authority figures.
> In one instance, I was the one who did the punching.
> Besides, I have my own list of awesome projects. It's just that a 
> lean, mean, Chomsky-0-capable, assembly-optimized (three lines source 
> to 20 lines assembly) natural language phrase generator never met a 
> widespread demand.
> Maven did, and Maven was the first to deliver a "good enough" 
> solution. I don't want to belittle that, and I bet it has been the 
> fruit of much work and thinking, but so are many other projects. 
> Maven's clout doesn't entitle its makers to awe - or, put another way: 
> Resting on your laurels is the wrong way to wear them.
>> They are giving you good advice about how to use it properly.
>> Why not try it their way for a week and see if it solves your problems.
> I have come here because the recommended way just replaces a problem 
> (binary jar import) with another one (repository management - I have 
> no public server to put one on, and I would need to).

Why not just put one on your PC. It does not have to be public.

> That problem has remained unanswered, so I have no basis for trying 
> anything out.
> Essentially, I've been asking for a fork, and you keep recommending I 
> try out a hammer, and that it will somehow, magically, enlighten me 
> and show me that all my problems are indeed nails.
> Okay, it's a metaphor and can be wrong like any metaphor, but it's my 
> current state of knowledge, and I'd really like to see an argument 
> that, somehow, my current problem is indeed a nail. It won't work if 
> what I write is being ignored in favor of assumptions like "OMG he's 
> still trying to shoehorn an SVN repo into carrying Maven repos" or 
> "OMG he's ignoring stability issues" - no I'm neither, but somehow you 
> guys let yourself get triggered into these assumptions whenever 
> somebody talks about SCM, or downloads, or binary jars.
> It's really annoying and tiring to argue against such assumptions.
>> Stephen has tried to give you concrete reasons why your way will lead to
>> a constant battle.
> With emphasis on "tried".
> Ultimately, he failed because he didn't really understand what I was 
> asking and argued based on assumptions that didn't hold.

He knows exactly what you are asking and what you want to do.

>> I can only tell you that our team was once where you are - starting out,
>> learning "the Maven way" without a repo.
>> Once we got the repo, a lot of good things happened in terms of our
>> understanding of the Maven way, our ability to deal with third party
>> jars and our ability to manage projects in a sensible and efficient way.
> I'll readily believe that. I'll also believe that it worked for your 
> sitation.
> I don't see how it would work for me. I don't have a server that's (a) 
> visible to all project members and (b) can carry a Maven repo.
> I'd do it on Maven Central, but somehow I doubt it's the right place 
> for experimenting with MRMs. Besides, Central does (rightfully) have 
> some strict rules in place, and struggling with strict rules and new 
> workflows and new tools at the same time is a few too many unknowns at 
> the same time to make success probably.

Spend a couple of dollars a month and put one on a cloud server if you 
really can't do it internally.

>> I have also seen a lot of new people come in and have trouble getting
>> adjusted.
>> It leads to a lot of traffic before they get rid of the ideas that once
>> drove their builds and conformed to the Maven way of doing things.
>> Frequently it is an Ant mindset that slows adoption and sometimes it is
>> a homemade build methodology.
> No Ant mindset here.
> My mindset is a "make" one: The first-class citizens are build rules 
> and artifacts, with the build rules creating the dependency graph 
> between artifacts. (Heck, I even wrote a make variant in Rexx, as a 
> student.)
> Unix make is inadequate for today's needs because it offers no way to 
> easily construct build rules as variants of existing rules, because it 
> has no good way to deal with dependency cycles, and because the 
> makefile syntax is a pile of suck (by modern standards).
> However, the "build rules infer dependencies" mindset is still 
> applicable.
> Ant is anathema from that perspective. It's just a different way to 
> express build scripts, with no way to express dependencies. It was a 
> good stopgap measure while make wouldn't work and no better 
> alternatives were available.
> Maven is more interesting, since it has quite some very strong points 
> (declarativiy, build stability, dependency management), but it also 
> gets some things thoroughly backwards (plugins that sometimes run just 
> in one phase and sometimes across phases, a badly documented set of 
> conventions combined with a convention-over-configuration approach, 
> configuration for a build step distributed over two, sometimes three 
> plugins, pre-xxx and post-xxx phases already hinting that the next 
> version of Maven will have pre-pre-xxx and post-post-xxx phases).
> Just my unenlightened view.
> And limited to GAV coordinates, dependencies, parent poms, and 
> configuration mechanics, so I'm missing anything beyond that - MRMs 
> and deployment, and maybe a few things more.
> I'd really love to have an MRM for the repo that m2e runs inside the 
> Eclipse workspace. That would be useful; Eclipse's "Maven 
> Repositories" view is extremely limited (essentially it's just a 
> display of all GAV coordinates available, which is a start but just a 
> start).

That is what we do. Eclipse/STS is eclipse with everything that you need 
already installed.
We use the Nexus repo on our server for browsing oher repos and hosting 
our own and carrying non-maven jars.

None of my guys can use DOS command line Maven.

If you want to do a SKype session, I can show you our Eclipse and Maven 
Repo. Would that help?


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Ron Wheeler
Artifact Software Inc
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102

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