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From "Thiessen, Todd (Todd)" <>
Subject RE: [Repetitive]: Maven does not live up to its promises
Date Mon, 25 Oct 2010 12:58:00 GMT
VERY well said Ben. You get my vote here.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benson Margulies []
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:27 AM
> To: Maven Users List
> Subject: Re: [Repetitive]: Maven does not live up to its promises
> I've tried to come up with a 'moderate' reprocessing of this dispute
> before, and for some reason I'm going to try again.
> The fundamental idea of Maven is that a build can be described with a
> small number of facts. This is possible if the right conventions are
> analyzed, designed, and implemented into the build system.
> If a build can be described as a small number of facts, XML is an
> unobjectional representation for those facts. If a POM fits on a page,
> verbosity of XML is just not an issue.
> Further, historically, Maven came behind Ant. If there's one thing
> worse that a few facts in XML, it's many, many, facts, and a small
> procedural language, in XML.
> For many purposes, and on many occasions, Maven succeeds in the
> 'fundamental idea' above.
> There is, however, a however. In some cases, POMs grow hair. Posters
> to this list sometimes seem to believe that every bit of that hair is
> illegitimate -- that it either reflects ignorance of 'the maven way,'
> or it reflects insufficient willingness to create new maven plugins.
> I think that this is an oversimplification. Start setting up a
> release, or the maven-eclipse-plugin, or a non-trivial web
> application, and you will find that your POM gets bigger and bigger
> and harder and harder to manage and understand. Cases that I'm
> familiar with include trying to cope with the interactions of
> <reporting/> plugins and ordinary plugins. In my opinion, XML does add
> a bit of salt to these wounds.
> However, over-focussing on the supposed intrinsic evil of XML, either
> on the complaint or the defense side, is a distraction. In my opinion,
> the real question is, "What would it take to keep 'maven way' POMs
> from growing and ramifying out of maintainability?"
> Generalize the 'main versus site' lifecycle to allow multiple
> lifecycle definitions, defined once, and reused in many poms?
> Some way to package up a gang of plugin specs for reuse?
> Support for 'include'?
> Tighter XML for common cases? My favorite in this area is goals. Oh
> how I wish for:
> <execution id='id' phase='phase' goal='goal'>
> ...
> </execution>
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