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From "Vincent Massol" <vinc...@massol.net>
Subject RE: Maven rant
Date Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:29:36 GMT


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sebastien Arbogast [mailto:sebastien.arbogast@gmail.com]
> Sent: mardi 31 octobre 2006 14:18
> To: Maven Users List
> Subject: Re: Maven rant
> 
> I totally agree but I think that the problem is very difficult to
> solve, especially with all the incredible amount of undeocumented
> features that Maven has. Moreover, the problem is amplified by the
> fact that Maven allows the generation of most of the documentation:
> but if you don't write it, it won't write itself, so you will endup
> with dead links everywhere.
> 
> As I see it, the problem in most Open Source projects is that
> developers do that on their free time, and developers aren't writers:
> those are two completely different tasks and the second one is not the
> most enjoyable.
> 
> And last but not least: Open Source software is highly evolutive: why
> bother write some documentation for a feature that can be replaced by
> something more interesting in no-time and without any possible
> anticipation.
> 
> The thing is that Maven is not the first Maven project I work with
> which faces that very issue. I had exactly the same problems a few
> months ago with Cocoon guys, and my remark is still the same: why do
> project leaders keep on considering documentation as a static thing.
> Think of Hibernate or PHP documentation: one base reference book with
> DYNAMIC comments in which people can share their thoughts and
> experiences about each feature/chapter, remarks that can be later
> integrated when the reference is rewritten. The problem is that,
> whereas development itself is a highly-collaborative and efficient
> process, nothing is really done so that documentation writing is
> collaborative enough: no workflow, no direct input, no dynamic
> comments, etc. Think of it: "Better Builds With Maven" is the most
> comprehensive documentation about Maven2. But was it written
> collaboratively? No. And I'm convinced that if it had been, it would
> be much higher quality and much more accessible today.

Sebastien, I don't believe this is true. This is the same as any open source
project. It's not the community that creates an open source project. It's
one or two guys (possibly 3 ;-)). Then once there is a strong kernel
developed by these few guys then others will join and help. The same is true
for documentation. You need one or 2 leaders to first write the core of it.
This is what we've done with BBWM. Now I agree that a good idea could be to
build on it by opening it up to the community. But don't believe a single
instant that the community will write a good quality book by itself. BTW
there's already a Maven wiki which is opened to anyone interested. It's been
there for more than a year but I wouldn't call the result comprehensive
documentation.

Thanks
-Vincent

> 2006/10/31, dhoffer <DHoffer@xrite.com>:
> >
> > Jeff,
> >
> > I use maven and I really like it and I don't want this to sound like
> > negative criticism but you are right, the learning curve for maven
> newbie's
> > is huge and there just isn't much good docs available.  I have wound
> up
> > getting bits of pieces of info from here and there...it just takes so
> long.
> > It would be great if some maven gurus could solve this problem and
> make
> > maven more accessible.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeff Mutonho wrote:
> > >
> > > Is maven in the process of unintentionally killing itself due to
> poor
> > > support and documentation?I may be wrong but I strongly feel that
> the
> > > poor support and documentation is hampering adoption of an
> otherwise
> > > brilliant tool.It always seems like the participation of plugin
> > > developers in answering questions from mere users like myself is
> > > non-existent.Then lets not forget the poor documentation.The BB
> book
> > > was an excellent idea ,but sometimes it just does not address
> problems
> > > users face on the "setup battle field" and the "configuration
> > > trenches" we're all familiar with.I'll give an example that relates
> to
> > > my experience.I posted questions relating to problems with the
> Maven
> > > Wagon plugin and in the process also thought it wise to see what
> the
> > > documents say.That led me to http://maven.apache.org/wagon/  and
> > > clicking on the Getting Started link I ended up at the URL
> > > http://maven.apache.org/wagon/guides/getting-started/index.html ,
> and
> > > almost every link there leads to a :
> > > =========================================================
> > > Page Not Found
> > > Sorry, the page you requested was not found. This may because:
> > >
> > >     * The page has moved, was outdated, or has not been created yet
> > >     * You typed the address incorrectly
> > >     * You following a link from another site that pointed to this
> page.
> > >
> > > We have recently reorganised our site, so please try looking in the
> > > navigation on the left for the item you are looking for on Maven
> 1.x
> > > or the Maven project. For information about Maven 2.0 or Continuum,
> > > please visit their sub sites, available from the links in the top
> > > right of the page. There is no need to report this broken link to
> the
> > > Maven team, as errors are periodically monitored and repaired.
> > >
> > > ===================================================================
> > >
> > > Same thing happens with the "Examples" link.Surely this cannot be a
> > > pleasant user experience for anyone , let alone for a poor newbie
> who
> > > might think looking at the docs is a good start.In my example, what
> > > then can a user do besides thinking of  putting one's neck on the
> > > guillotine?One gets no help on the mailing list and the
> documentation
> > > isn't helpful either.
> > > I understand very well the idea that people are busy etc , but also
> > > feel that there's need for more participation  from plugin authors
> in
> > > helping mere users like myself and others who get stuck with
> problems
> > > only the maven gurus can solve...unless of course the plugins are
> only
> > > to be used by the authors themselves.
> > > Please don't take take this as whining , but rather , as a personal
> > > view and perhaps constructive criticism.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > Jeff  Mutonho
> > >
> > > GoogleTalk : ejbengine
> > > Skype        : ejbengine
> > > Registered Linux user number 366042
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Maven-rant-
> tf2544811s177.html#a7093319
> > Sent from the Maven - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
> 
> 
> --
> Sébastien Arbogast
> 
> http://www.sebastien-arbogast.com
> 
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