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From "Bielby, Randy J" <>
Subject RE: Jar help
Date Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:06:30 GMT

Thanks for the laugh first thing this morning.  You have hit the nail
right on the head.  In fact, I thought for a minute that you worked here
in my build, LOL.

I'm going to have to do a lot of thinking.  I only have so much energy
and favors that I can call upon to get certain things done.  This may or
may not be one of them.

Randy Bielby

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tim Reilly [] 
>Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 1:39 PM
>To: Maven Users List
>Subject: RE: Jar help
>Well, I not so long ago began to pursue such an upstream battle.
>I will say that had we implemented maven, a lot of problems would have
>fallen away relating to a very inexperienced team considering 
>what we were
>trying to accomplish. Similar environment/architecture I think; WSAD,
>Websphere, web applications. As I approached people trying to build
>consensus, I found no one who really had the knowledge about 
>maven to give
>me more than a shrug and a "sounds cool". As I approached the 
>subject in
>meetings I found resistance, not very much related to maven. 
>It was more
>vented hostilities of a group of people frustrated by the 
>vicious cycle of
>defeatism corporate culture, which had fragmented the teams 
>that needed to
>work together if they expected to produce.
>The real and honest responses to my lobbying for mavenizing 
>our projects
>during our "team" meetings probably would have sound something like;
>"I have no idea what your talking about and probably never will, so I'm
>against it",
>"I don't like when you get more attention in meetings, I think 
>I'll make a
>negative comment now",
>"Oh great this is going to be another something we have to learn",
>"This idea didn't come from my group, I  so I'm going to shoot 
>it down",
>"That's not how 'we' do things, why is this guy always trying 
>to fix what's
>perfectly broken"
>"I can barely do my job, now and this guy wants to add something"
>"Sounds like this might do part of my job, how will I justify 
>my position"
>... (ok`lil cynical, but I don't think I'm too far off)
>Basically, I realized that the group suffered much deeper issues than
>Mavenizing our projects, even though it would have automated 
>many things,
>enforced (or an least reported on) coding consistency, saved 
>lots of people
>time in wheel-reinventing (if they actually spent 2 seconds on project
>docs), alleviated build issues that we had based in lack of knowledge,
>improved communication that wasn't happening, and even saved money and
>improved quality, and productivity. The legitimate technical 
>counter points
>were: 1) I hadn't try Mavenide in wsad 5.0x, so IDE integration was a
>question mark, 2) and we used some special preview technology for ejbql
>optimization that someone claimed meant builds had to be done 
>from within
>the ide (I didn't follow up to see if the WAS5.x ant tasks 
>would do it or
>My experience from this case was the direction needed to come 
>from the top
>down. Had an IBM type or Accenture type consultant said 
>"What... your NOT
>using Maven" then I'm sure our management would have - rushed 
>to find out
>what Maven is, and then set the directive so everyone at least 
>needed to
>make some effort to learn more than the word "maven".
>Retrospectively, I probably would have started with trying to get the
>highest level managers on board by defining in dollars and 
>cents why its
>important, then made sure part of their commitment was to get 
>some bundled
>consulting & training from an outside party, preferably from 
>someone close
>to the maven project (like a maven committer and not a 
>consultant that was
>sourced by way of a fourth or fifth level vendor and billed through the
>first level vendor.)
>Sorry for the email's tone, but that was my experience so at 
>least you can
>benchmark against your corp culture. In a Six Sigma sort of culture the
>above story would have a smashing success ending, but...alas no.
>My two line response would have been:
>- My opinion is that maven fits perfectly for corporate 
>development with
>tons of advantages.
>- But, getting buy-in and dealing with your company culture 
>are key to doing
>it successfully.
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