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From Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Log4j Warning
Date Wed, 06 Jan 2016 22:46:05 GMT
Jason, I am sorry but to disagree with you. Your statistics are still not
telling a full story. I can glance at the commit graphs of these 76 logback
contributors rather quickly to see really how "diverse" this community is.

* 35 (~45%) only ever made 1 contribution
* 18 (~25%) have only ever made 2 contributions
* 16 (~20%) have between 3-10 contributions.

That leaves only 7 logback contributors (~10%) who actually do something.
And of those 7, only 4 committed something in 2015 ... and Cecki is the
leader by far. It's clearly a very visible one man show with sparse
contributions from others.

Based on these numbers, I think Log4J2 has the better community involvement.

Cheers,
Paul

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Jason van Zyl <jason@takari.io> wrote:

> A contributor on that page is not a comparison of committers vs not.
> People who have made pull requests to Maven are listed as contributors.
> Just as they would for Log4J2. A measure, albeit one, of the overall
> diversity of contribution.
>
> > On Jan 6, 2016, at 5:27 PM, Paul Benedict <pbenedict@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > I am writing regarding this statement: "Ceki may do more commits but it’s
> > certainly not a one man show. 76 contributors for Logback and 8
> > contributors for Log4J2."
> >
> > The numbers in themselves do not tell a full story. It's in appropriate
> to
> > conclude that since 76 > 8, therefore logback is a better choice. The 8
> > contributors in Log4J2 have been voted in according to Apache bylaws.
> > Conversely, there aren't any bylaws for logback; the logback Github
> project
> > owner can freely grant commit privileges at will ... and evidently, they
> > do! So the bar for committer rights is much (much) lower than at Apache.
> I
> > don't think the above comparison is fair toward log4j2.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Paul
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Jason van Zyl <jason@takari.io> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 12:25 PM, Arnaud Héritier <aheritier@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> great, more constructive feedback :-)
> >>> Thanks Jason
> >>>
> >>> Both projects are well known and widely used even if log4j v2 is
> younger
> >>> with less downloads such figures are not really representative with all
> >>> caches/repositories managers I think.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I don’t have a single peer that uses Log4j2 and that’s important to me.
> I
> >> do not believe Log4J2 is well known or widely use. I think 3 years of
> >> releases is fairly representative in that Logback is getting close to
> the
> >> Log4J incoming edge count and if you remove all the incoming edges from
> >> Apache there are not a lot of users.
> >>
> >>> About logback vs log4j I have really no real preference technically
> >>> speaking (I had both branches working in the past and used them a lot
> in
> >> my
> >>> professional life - http://www.aheritier.net/united-colors-of-maven/).
> >>>
> >>> In term of community, Log4J is in our apache community and we have few
> >>> active committers arround. On Logback side even if I really appreciate
> >> Ceki
> >>> I'm always afraid about this one-man show project. (and Ceki isn't
> >> perfect
> >>> too when we see the nightmare of slf4j-api 1.5+ incompatibilities we
> >> always
> >>> have in 2016 !!).
> >>
> >> Ceki may do more commits but it’s certainly not a one man show. 76
> >> contributors for Logback and 8 contributors for Log4J2. It’s stable and
> >> mature at this point with 54 releases versus 33 for Log4J2. I don’t
> think
> >> any person responsible for picking a package for logging would get much
> >> support in their organization for Log4J2, as the data would suggest. I
> >> think with few contributors and usage it would likely be deemed a less
> wise
> >> choice than Logback and possibly a risk. There are also lots of Apache
> >> projects that use Logback. I think pragmatism is a factor in all the
> other
> >> projects at Apache who selected Logback. Being at Apache obviously
> wasn’t
> >> the determining criterion and it shouldn’t be.
> >>
> >>> I agree that we are just talking about a logging implementation but you
> >> saw
> >>> what it gave for eclipse/aether ….
> >>>
> >>
> >> I’m not sure what your point is here. No one worked on any of the parts,
> >> ever, whether here or at Eclipse. I doubt anyone will work on it when it
> >> comes back. So I’m not sure what analogy you’re trying to make.
> >>
> >>> I'm clearly not enough involved enough in the project to try to
> convince
> >>> anyone about a choice to do but I can just say that not having a
> >> colorized
> >>> console in 2016 is .... irritating.
> >>>
> >>> For the problem reported by Gary I think that applying the fix in
> >>>
> >>
> maven-embedder/src/main/resources/META-INF/maven/slf4j-configuration.properties
> >>> (
> >>>
> >>
> https://github.com/apache/maven/commit/8cddea291c279130d437bcdf3337f16296558530
> >>> )
> >>> is safe to be back-ported in master. It is just that
> >>> org.slf4j.helpers.Log4jLoggerFactorywas for Log4J 1 AFAIU and now that
> >>> Log4J2 is release/stabilized there is a new one :
> >>> org.apache.logging.slf4j.Log4jLoggerFactory
> >>>
> >>
> >> If I asked Ceki for help I’d get it immediately also. Who isn’t going to
> >> help there to get their library bundled with Maven?
> >>
> >>> For the replacement of the implementation and activate colors I prefer
> to
> >>> let active committers decide of what they are doing (I imagine that for
> >> any
> >>> choice they are doing it doesn't avoid you to use another one in your
> own
> >>> distribution ?
> >>>
> >>> I would prefer log4j2 but clearly I never merged it because of the
> slf4j
> >>> conflict that I don't understand (but I didn't spend a lot of time on
> it)
> >>>
> >>
> >> To me the most important factor is usage, of course you need some
> >> threshold of developers so that people are working on it but even there
> I’d
> >> say it’s pretty sparse in Log4J2. But with widespread usage comes
> >> examination, issue submissions, pull requests and ultimately more people
> >> that contribute and that’s clearly the case with Logback. I don’t see
> how
> >> you can logically refute that and see Log4J2 a better choice because of
> >> what organization it’s developed within? Logback has a community it just
> >> doesn’t happen to be here, and Ceki's not some random guy. He also has a
> >> long track record of open source dedication and contribution.
> >>
> >>> Cheers
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Jason van Zyl <jason@takari.io> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> These are the numbers I arrived at, happy to run them with different
> >>>> coordinates but thought these were representative:
> >>>>
> >>>> gremlin> g.V('vc', 'log4j:log4j').inE.count()
> >>>> ==>84570
> >>>>
> >>>> gremlin> g.V('vc', 'ch.qos.logback:logback-classic').inE.count()
> >>>> ==>62389
> >>>>
> >>>> gremlin> g.V('vc', 'org.apache.logging.log4j:log4j-core').inE.count()
> >>>> ==>3134
> >>>>
> >>>> These are incoming edges across all versions of said coordinate.
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Jason van Zyl <jason@takari.io>
wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As we said previously when the the question arose again there would
> be
> >> a
> >>>> discussion. You may not remember, but I expect there to be a
> discussion.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have built a graph of Maven Central to analyze the rank (count
of
> all
> >>>> incoming edges) for Log4J2 and Logback and it is clear from those
> >> numbers
> >>>> that everyone has gone from Log4J to Logback. What has happened, I
> >> believe
> >>>> from the numbers, is that the community followed the founder of the
> >> project
> >>>> and not the owner project in pretty much the exact same way users went
> >> with
> >>>> Jenkins and not Hudson. Anyone is happy to take the graph and verify
> >> this
> >>>> themselves, or generate their own data from the machine that is
> housing
> >> the
> >>>> copy of Maven Central at Google.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Additionally Igor has an implementation for logging during concurrent
> >>>> builds based on Logback that I would really like to use, and the color
> >>>> logging is also easy with Logback. I do not want to use something that
> >> the
> >>>> community at large has not adopted.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Again, anyone is welcome to the code and/or the data if they want
to
> >>>> verify this themselves.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I also am not interested in a debate so if we disagree then just
> leave
> >>>> the simple implementation in place. I’m not philosophically motivated
> >> much
> >>>> here in these discussions but I’m vehemently opposed to integrating
> >> Log4J2.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Arnaud Héritier <aheritier@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> thanks for this valuable comment Jason :(
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Jason van Zyl <jason@takari.io>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -1
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Do not merge this branch.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 4:05 AM, Tibor Digana <tibordigana@apache.org>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Arnaud,
> >>>>>>>> Do you plan a Release Version to merge this branch o
master in
> >> Maven?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 7:18 AM, Arnaud Héritier [via
Maven] <
> >>>>>>>> ml-node+s40175n5857870h10@n5.nabble.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Just because only 2.4 was available when I updated
this feature
> >>>> branch
> >>>>>>> few
> >>>>>>>>> months ago.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Le mardi 5 janvier 2016, Gary Gregory <[hidden
email]
> >>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=0>>
a
> écrit :
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Arnaud,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the update.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Why not update the Log4j 2 dep from 2.4 to 2.5?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Gary
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Arnaud Héritier
<[hidden email]
> >>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=1>
> >>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gary,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I fixed this in the branch :
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/maven/commits/slf4j-log4j2.4
> >>>>>>>>>>> The fix is in
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> maven-embedder/src/main/resources/META-INF/maven/slf4j-configuration.properties
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://github.com/apache/maven/commit/8cddea291c279130d437bcdf3337f16296558530
> >>>>>>>>>>> )
> >>>>>>>>>>> It is the update I did after my old blog
post :
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.aheritier.net/united-colors-of-maven/
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> BR
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Gary Gregory
<[hidden email]
> >>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=2>
> >>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Happy Holidays.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Can the next version of Maven be rid
of this warning:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [WARN] The SLF4J binding actually used
is not supported by
> >> Maven:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> org.apache.logging.slf4j.Log4jLoggerFactory
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [WARN] Maven supported bindings are:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [WARN] (from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> jar:file:/E:/Java/apache-maven-3.3.9/bin/../lib/maven-embedder-3.3.9.jar!/META-INF/maven/slf4j-configuration.properties)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> - ch.qos.logback.classic.LoggerContext
> >>>>>>>>>>>> - org.slf4j.helpers.Log4jLoggerFactory
> >>>>>>>>>>>> - org.slf4j.impl.SimpleLoggerFactory
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is there a step I am missing to use
Log4j 2 cleanly? My steps
> >> are
> >>>>>>>>> here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> https://garygregory.wordpress.com/2015/03/23/watch-maven-in-color/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail: [hidden email]
> >>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=3>
> >>>> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>>> | [hidden
> >>>>>>>>> email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=4>
> >>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second
Edition
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.manning.com/bauer3/>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <
> >> http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> -----
> >>>>>>>>>>> Arnaud Héritier
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://aheritier.net
> >>>>>>>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com
> >>>>>>>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> E-Mail: [hidden email]
> >>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=5>
> >>>> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>>> | [hidden
> >>>>>>>>> email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=6>
> >>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition
> >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.manning.com/bauer3/>
> >>>>>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <
> http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/>
> >>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
> >>>>>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/
> >>>>>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> -----
> >>>>>>>>> Arnaud Héritier
> >>>>>>>>> http://aheritier.net
> >>>>>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com
> >>>>>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>> If you reply to this email, your message will be
added to the
> >>>> discussion
> >>>>>>>>> below:
> >>>>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>>>>>>> .
> >>>>>>>>> NAML
> >>>>>>>>> <
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
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> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> View this message in context:
> >>>>>>>
> >> http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/Log4j-Warning-tp5856237p5857942.html
> >>>>>>>> Sent from the Maven Developers mailing list archive
at Nabble.com.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Jason
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> Jason van Zyl
> >>>>>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven
> >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io
> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"}
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> -----
> >>>>>> Arnaud Héritier
> >>>>>> http://aheritier.net
> >>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com
> >>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jason
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> Jason van Zyl
> >>>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven
> >>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> >>>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"}
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> Jason
> >>>>
> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> Jason van Zyl
> >>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven
> >>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> >>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io
> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"}
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> -----
> >>> Arnaud Héritier
> >>> http://aheritier.net
> >>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com
> >>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Jason
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> Jason van Zyl
> >> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven
> >> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> >> http://twitter.com/takari_io
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"}
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> http://twitter.com/takari_io
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"}
>
>
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