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From Jason van Zyl <>
Subject Re: Apache Maven distribution with fixes
Date Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:34:13 GMT

On Jul 28, 2011, at 9:18 AM, Daniel Kulp wrote:

> On Thursday, July 28, 2011 8:59:09 AM Jason van Zyl wrote:
>> On Jul 28, 2011, at 8:49 AM, Daniel Kulp wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 28, 2011 7:41:16 AM Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>> I'll assume that this is fine and no one objects. I'll announce this
>>>> on the user list later today.
>>> *THAT* I have a problem with.    I don't consider these any different
>>> than our nightly snapshots or a different commercial "build" of an
>>> Apache project.   In both of those cases, announcements about them or
>>> promoting them over the official project supplied releases is, IMO, not
>>> acceptable on the *users* list.
>> I'm not promoting them over official project releases because there is no
>> official project release, or nightly, that incorporates the fixes users
>> have been asking for. This is a build Benjamin and I created to help users.
>> I will not post anything on the user list, if as a PMC member you're
>> telling me I can't.
> I'm saying you can't make a "general" announcement about it as it would be no 
> different than making announcements of commercial versions of projects (that 
> contain things like fixes and features not available from Apache builds) on 
> other projects users lists.   The fact that builds are specifically labeled 
> "sonatype" really emphasizes the "commercial" nature of these builds.

I'm honestly confused about how to label it which is why I asked. There's nothing commercial
in the build, and we'll call it or label it however you like. I'm not particular worried about
the names, I just want to get the build to users.

> In this particular case, if a specific user asks a question or has an issue, 
> in a reply to that user, you can mention it, but make clear in the response:
> 1) There are non-sanctioned builds of Maven not endorsed by the Maven project.

I think that was clear from my initial email. But if you have some text you want included
I'm happy to include it.

> 2) It contains code and fixes that have not been incorporated into Apache  
> Maven, not even to trunk.

I think that was also clear from the email.

> 3) As such, any fixes (or new bugs) may not be present in a future version of 
> Maven.

Sure, I can add that explaining the Aether and Sisu situation.

> 4) They are using such builds at their own risk.

Aren't they always?

> 5) Due to the above, it's not recommend to use these builds in any sort of 
> production scenario.

I'm not going to say that. I wouldn't build anything and offer it to users if I didn't think
it was good. None of the above has anything to do with its production readiness.

> At the end of the day, if you really cared about the Maven users, you'd help 
> us get an official Apache version of 3.0.4 out.   The fact that you are 
> unwilling to do what is necessary to make that happen is very frustrating to 
> me.  

It's entirely within your control as a PMC member to accept the use of industry accept license
from a world-class open source organization. I think personally and others from Sonatype have
shown they care. We've done vast majority of work along the path of 3.x. Even with all the
recent events we still just pushed back a slew of fixes across several code bases and produced
a build because no one else here is stepping up to do any of the work necessary to keep the
project going.

> Dan
>>> If you want to point a couple of your users at them to help test things
>>> or similar, fine as a lead up to 3.0.4.  But they cannot be considered
>>> "general available" things similar to releases.
>>> Dan
>>>> On Jul 27, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>>> Maven PMC,
>>>>> Benjamin and I would like to make a distribution available that
>>>>> addresses several issues with the Apache Maven 3.0.3 release. We
>>>>> have
>>>>> pushed back all bugfixes that do not involve Eclipse Aether[a] and
>>>>> Eclipse Sisu[b] as their incorporation into the mainline and an
>>>>> official release is your decision.
>>>>> We haven't pushed any individual artifacts to Maven Central as part
>>>>> of
>>>>> creating the distribution, we have only created the distribution
>>>>> itself. If there is anything you want changed let us know and we'll
>>>>> change it, but we wanted to make these fixes available in a build
>>>>> for
>>>>> users who are having problems. We're not trying to represent it as
>>>>> anything other then a distribution that incorporates fixes users
>>>>> need.
>>>>> The build is available here:
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>> Summary of the issues
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>> Fixes pushed back to the ASF:
>>>>> [MNG-5064][1] mvn -nsu (--no-snapshot-updates) should not download
>>>>> snapshots (and break local builds) [MNG-5131][2] Wrong encoding for
>>>>> encrypted passwords
>>>>> [MNG-5113][3] NullPointerException on javadoc site generation
>>>>> [MNG-5137][4] Reactor resolution does not work for forked multi
>>>>> module
>>>>> builds [MNG-5096][5] <exclusion> on <dependency> with
>>>>> <type>test-jar</type> doesn't work in maven 3 [MNG-5135][6]
>>>>> Regression:
>>>>> in some cases aggregator mojo is unable to resolve dependencies with
>>>>> custom packaging
>>>>> Fixes not pushed back to the ASF as these are dependent on fixes in
>>>>> Eclipse Aether and Eclipse Sisu:
>>>>> [MNG-5042][7] Regression: CloningClassLoader causes
>>>>> StackOverflowError
>>>>> in groovy [MNG-5056][8] Test dependencies get packaged into WAR
>>>>> file.
>>>>> [MNG-5084][9] Resolver for plugins failing
>>>>> [MNG-5087][10] Maven 3 dependency resolution fails until
>>>>> maven-metadata-local.xml files (created by maven-invoker-plugin) are
>>>>> deleted [MNG-5125] [11]Regression: mvn 3.0.3 is extreemly slow with
>>>>> a
>>>>> large number of dependencies [MNG-5138][12] Dependency conflicts are
>>>>> extremely opaque
>>>>> [1]:
>>>>> [2]:
>>>>> [3]:
>>>>> [4]:
>>>>> [5]:
>>>>> [6]:
>>>>> [7]:
>>>>> [8]:
>>>>> [9]:
>>>>> [10]:
>>>>> [11]:
>>>>> [12]:
>>>>> [a]:
>>>>> [b]:
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Jason
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>>> Eclipse Board Member
>>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> If I find ten thousand ways something won't work, I haven't failed.
>>>>> I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is just
>>>>> one more step forward.
>>>>> -- Thomas Edison
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jason
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Our achievements speak for themselves. What we have to keep track
>>>> of are our failures, discouragements and doubts. We tend to forget
>>>> the past difficulties, the many false starts, and the painful
>>>> groping. We see our past achievements as the end result of a
>>>> clean forward thrust, and our present difficulties as
>>>> signs of decline and decay.
>>>> -- Eric Hoffer, Reflections on the Human Condition
>> Thanks,
>> Jason
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Jason van Zyl
>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>> What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good people can fix
>> bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people.
>> -- Paul Graham
> -- 
> Daniel Kulp
> Talend -



Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven

You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in.
No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow.
They know it is going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically
dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kind of 
dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or
goals are in doubt.

  -- Robert Pirzig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

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