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From John Casey <jdca...@commonjava.org>
Subject Re: Apache Maven distribution with fixes
Date Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:03:16 GMT


On 7/28/11 10:43 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> On Jul 28, 2011, at 10:23 AM, Mark Struberg wrote:
>
>> The reason why no one committed to Aether beside yourself is partly that it requires
to sign some CLA which only unilaterally grants rights (as we can certainly see now!).
>
> Have you read the Sonatype CLA? The contributor keeps retains copyright and Sonatype
is granted the license. Much the same way the Apache or Eclipse CLAs work. We changed that
a long time ago when Brett pointed it out. Additionally Hervé and Kristian signed the CLA.
It's not just Sonatype employees.

So you had to get approval from all contributors before switching to 
EPl-only?

>
>> Which is another reason why I consider a fork to apache-extras a good idea. And don't
come me with the argument that the Maven community is not able to maintain Maven without your
help. At least there IS now a CI environment. And remember who built the git stuff on which
your whole company is based upon?
>
> I'm not sure what you're referring to, we don't even sell anything with git in it. m2eclipse
has an m2eclipse-egit connector but we stopped using jgit-simple, if that's the work you're
referring to, and use the JGit APIs directly now[1].
>
>> The argument is not that we cannot fix it becaues we are dumb little bunnies, but
because the code is not under our control anymore!
>>
>
> I specifically said that folks here, from empirical observation, do not have the time
or energy. Additionally I would say you don't have much experience in the Aether and Sisu
codebases.
>
> I most definitely did not say you were dumb, or didn't have the aptitude. But having
the aptitude still puts you a long way from working with the code effectively. There's nothing
magical about it, it's the same as any other body of code in that it takes time, and energy
to learn and gain experience with a new codebase and become effective with it.
>
> [1]: https://github.com/sonatype/m2eclipse-egit/blob/master/org.sonatype.m2e.egit.target-platform/e37.target
>
>> LieGrue,
>> strub
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu, 7/28/11, Jason van Zyl<jason@sonatype.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> From: Jason van Zyl<jason@sonatype.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Apache Maven distribution with fixes
>>> To: "Maven Developers List"<dev@maven.apache.org>
>>> Date: Thursday, July 28, 2011, 1:23 PM
>>>
>>> On Jul 28, 2011, at 8:52 AM, Mark Struberg wrote:
>>>
>>>> Humm, guess there are only 3 options left in this
>>> case
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1.) We wait 7 weeks or whatever time it takes (most
>>> probably it _will_ take more)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not likely, it will probably be shorter as I was being
>>> conservative. The scheduling at Eclipse is like a clockwork.
>>> Once the review period of over the creation review is
>>> immediately scheduled. The creation review and initial legal
>>> review will have no issues because nearly 100% of the code
>>> was written by Sonatype employees and we're all cleared at
>>> Eclipse. The code will start the parallel IP immediately and
>>> probably clear IP review very fast given it's all Sonatype
>>> code and there is already precedent for a lot of our code
>>> going into Eclipse.
>>>
>>>> 2.) You ship an ALv2 licensed version of Aether and
>>> Sisu which we can incorporate into an upcoming maven-3.0.4.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The proposals are posted, I'm not changing the licenses
>>> now.
>>>
>>>> 3.) We fork the last ALv2 licensed Aether version back
>>> to the Maven project and fix the bugs ourself.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I believe this will never happen and you will put the
>>> project in a very bad place if you attempt to do that. Since
>>> our last release not a single Maven committer outside of
>>> Sonatype has made any bug fixes or patches to the core (Paul
>>> made one small feature addition). You guys are talking about
>>> a new wagon, POM5 formats, new logging, artifact lookup
>>> indirection, but the day to day of actually patching and bug
>>> fixing is entirely absent and things like the plugin ITs are
>>> failing day after day in CI. Looking at the situation
>>> empirically, the probability that you will have the time and
>>> energy to try and patch Aether and Sisu given no one has
>>> patched any of the normal core code here I find a highly
>>> impractical and dangerous proposal.
>>>
>>> Path 1) doesn't preclude your participation and we've done
>>> nothing to hinder Kristian or Herve from participating.
>>>
>>>> LieGrue,
>>>> strub
>>>>
>>>> --- On Thu, 7/28/11, Jason van Zyl<jason@sonatype.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: Jason van Zyl<jason@sonatype.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Apache Maven distribution with fixes
>>>>> To: "Maven Developers List"<dev@maven.apache.org>
>>>>> Date: Thursday, July 28, 2011, 12:32 PM
>>>>> On Jul 28, 2011, at 8:25 AM, Mark
>>>>> Struberg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> mom jason.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Before we ship 3.0.4 I'd like to fix the SCM
>>> URL
>>>>> postfix problem which exists in lots of DSCMs.
>>> Will do this
>>>>> in the next week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You probably have 6-7 weeks before an official
>>> 3.0.4
>>>>> release would be made so you have plenty of time.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are going to wait for Aether and Sisu to
>>> be
>>>>> provisioned at Eclipse then the total time for
>>> both of those
>>>>> to pass into that state is about 7 weeks. The
>>> build I
>>>>> proposed could not be an official release until
>>> such a time
>>>>> because there are fixes which rely on Sisu and
>>> Aether which
>>>>> are important for users.
>>>>>
>>>>>> LieGrue,
>>>>>> strub
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Thu, 7/28/11, Jason van Zyl<jason@sonatype.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Jason van Zyl<jason@sonatype.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Apache Maven distribution
>>> with fixes
>>>>>>> To: "Maven Developers List"<dev@maven.apache.org>
>>>>>>> Date: Thursday, July 28, 2011, 11:41 AM
>>>>>>> I'll assume that this is fine and no
>>>>>>> one objects. I'll announce this on the
>>> user list
>>>>> later
>>>>>>> today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Jason van
>>> Zyl
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maven PMC,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Benjamin and I would like to make a
>>>>> distribution
>>>>>>> available that addresses several issues
>>> with the
>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>> Maven 3.0.3 release. We have pushed back
>>> all
>>>>> bugfixes that
>>>>>>> do not involve Eclipse Aether[a] and
>>> Eclipse
>>>>> Sisu[b] as
>>>>>>> their incorporation into the mainline and
>>> an
>>>>> official
>>>>>>> release is your decision.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We haven't pushed any individual
>>> artifacts to
>>>>> Maven
>>>>>>> Central as part of creating the
>>> distribution, we
>>>>> have only
>>>>>>> created the distribution itself. If there
>>> is
>>>>> anything you
>>>>>>> want changed let us know and we'll change
>>> it, but
>>>>> we wanted
>>>>>>> to make these fixes available in a build
>>> for users
>>>>> who are
>>>>>>> having problems. We're not trying to
>>> represent it
>>>>> as
>>>>>>> anything other then a distribution that
>>>>> incorporates fixes
>>>>>>> users need.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The build is available here:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://people.apache.org/~jvanzyl
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Summary of the issues
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fixes pushed back to the ASF:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [MNG-5064][1] mvn -nsu
>>> (--no-snapshot-updates)
>>>>> should
>>>>>>> not download snapshots (and break local
>>> builds)
>>>>>>>> [MNG-5131][2] Wrong encoding for
>>> encrypted
>>>>> passwords
>>>>>>>> [MNG-5113][3] NullPointerException on
>>> javadoc
>>>>> site
>>>>>>> generation
>>>>>>>> [MNG-5137][4] Reactor resolution does
>>> not work
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> forked multi module builds
>>>>>>>> [MNG-5096][5]<exclusion>  on
>>>>> <dependency>
>>>>>>> with<type>test-jar</type>
>>> doesn't
>>>>> work in maven
>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>> [MNG-5135][6] Regression: in some
>>> cases
>>>>> aggregator
>>>>>>> mojo is unable to resolve dependencies
>>> with
>>>>> custom
>>>>>>> packaging
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fixes not pushed back to the ASF as
>>> these are
>>>>>>> dependent on fixes in Eclipse Aether and
>>> Eclipse
>>>>> Sisu:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [MNG-5042][7] Regression:
>>> CloningClassLoader
>>>>> causes
>>>>>>> StackOverflowError in groovy
>>>>>>>> [MNG-5056][8] Test dependencies get
>>> packaged
>>>>> into WAR
>>>>>>> file.
>>>>>>>> [MNG-5084][9] Resolver for plugins
>>> failing
>>>>>>>> [MNG-5087][10] Maven 3 dependency
>>> resolution
>>>>> fails
>>>>>>> until maven-metadata-local.xml files
>>> (created by
>>>>>>> maven-invoker-plugin) are deleted
>>>>>>>> [MNG-5125] [11]Regression: mvn 3.0.3
>>> is
>>>>> extreemly slow
>>>>>>> with a large number of dependencies
>>>>>>>> [MNG-5138][12] Dependency conflicts
>>> are
>>>>> extremely
>>>>>>> opaque
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1]: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG-5064
>>>>>>>> [2]: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG-5131
>>>>>>>> [3]: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG-5113
>>>>>>>> [4]: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG-5137
>>>>>>>> [5]: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG-5096
>>>>>>>> [6]: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG-5135
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [7]: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG-5042
>>>>>>>> [8]: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG-5056
>>>>>>>> [9]: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG-5084
>>>>>>>> [10]: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG-5087
>>>>>>>> [11]: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG-5125
>>>>>>>> [12]: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG-5138
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [a]: http://eclipse.org/proposals/technology.aether/
>>>>>>>> [b]: http://eclipse.org/proposals/technology.sisu/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>>>>>> Eclipse Board Member
>>>>>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I find ten thousand ways something
>>> won't
>>>>> work, I
>>>>>>> haven't failed. I am not discouraged,
>>>>>>>> because every wrong attempt discarded
>>> is just
>>>>> one more
>>>>>>> step forward.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- Thomas Edison
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Our achievements speak for themselves.
>>> What we
>>>>> have to keep
>>>>>>> track
>>>>>>> of are our failures, discouragements and
>>> doubts.
>>>>> We tend to
>>>>>>> forget
>>>>>>> the past difficulties, the many false
>>> starts, and
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> painful
>>>>>>> groping. We see our past achievements as
>>> the end
>>>>> result of
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> clean forward thrust, and our present
>>> difficulties
>>>>> as
>>>>>>> signs of decline and decay.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Eric Hoffer, Reflections on the Human
>>>>> Condition
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> People develop abstractions by generalizing from
>>> concrete
>>>>> examples.
>>>>> Every attempt to determine the correct abstraction
>>> on paper
>>>>> without
>>>>> actually developing a running system is doomed to
>>> failure.
>>>>> No one
>>>>> is that smart. A framework is a resuable design,
>>> so you
>>>>> develop it by
>>>>> looking at the things it is supposed to be a
>>> design of. The
>>>>> more examples
>>>>> you look at, the more general your framework will
>>> be.
>>>>>
>>>>>     -- Ralph Johnson&  Don
>>> Roberts, Patterns for
>>>>> Evolving Frameworks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> Jason van Zyl
>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> You are never dedicated to something you have complete
>>> confidence in.
>>> No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to
>>> rise tomorrow.
>>> They know it is going to rise tomorrow. When people are
>>> fanatically
>>> dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other
>>> kind of
>>> dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or
>>> goals are in doubt.
>>>
>>>    -- Robert Pirzig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
>>> Maintenance
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will
> elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come
> and sit softly on your shoulder ...
>
>   -- Thoreau
>
>
>
>

-- 
John Casey
Developer, PMC Chair - Apache Maven (http://maven.apache.org)
Blog: http://www.johnofalltrades.name/

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