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From: Jason van Zyl <jason@sonatype.com>
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Subject: Re: Merging in our Aether and Guice changes to Maven 3.x
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 12:57:31 -0400
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On Aug 4, 2010, at 11:54 AM, John Casey wrote:

>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Having a stable set of specifications define their interaction with =
Maven would make plugin development and embedding MUCH better. In fact, =
I think establishing this practice might be the single best contribution =
we can make to Maven in the near term.
>>>=20
>=20
> All due respect, but that dodges the question of separating and =
standardizing the API from the implementation. It also dodges the =
discussion about who sets the design of the repository format and the =
API spec used to access it.
>=20

To me that's sounds like a bunch of busy work without much value. It =
works, and it's going to evolve by having people use it. The ultimate =
API will never be arrived at without lots of integrators. That's how =
everything evolves.

> You're asking the Maven community to give up one of its greatest =
creations - the repository format that has become a de facto standard - =
and become completely dependent on a project whose future may be =
uncertain. It's easy to talk about companies as these fixtures in the =
market, but the fact is we're talking about giving complete control over =
the Maven repository API / format to a start-up.

I can't make you, or anyone else, do anything you don't want to do. Vote =
against it, implement your own library, I'm not putting a gun to your =
head. I've done what I feel is best, I've laid out what I think is best. =
You can disagree and take action accordingly.

> Start-ups are not known for their stability. Then, the company in =
control _may_ decide (unilaterally) to move the whole shebang to =
Eclipse. There's absolutely no role for Maven developers in this model, =
unless they go out and re-establish their merit on a new project.
>=20

First, the code is ASL so if we rolled over tomorrow then take it. =
That's really not a problem. Second, yes we created it so if we want to =
take it to Eclipse we can do that. People who do the work get to make =
choices like that. Eclipse is solid place to do OSS work.

I'm tired of the endless debates about infrastructure, release process, =
using git, and I honestly think Aether not being here is the best thing =
for getting others involved.=20

> I'm not talking about the merit to contribute implementation details - =
though the ASF concept of non-expiring merit argues strongly against =
losing access to that. What I'm talking about is the right to contribute =
to the design of the repository format, API, and SPI (now that I notice =
that's separate from the API). The language we use to share artifacts =
and metadata should not be under the sole control of a private entity.

That honestly has nothing to do with where the code is. If we shut =
everyone out, we'd just be shooting ourselves in the face and ruin any =
reputation we have of being meaningful contributors to the Maven =
ecosystem. That doesn't do Sonatype any good. The argument that the only =
place that can be done is simply not true.

>=20
> Sure, there haven't been too many contributors to Maven 3. But how =
much of that has to do with the velocity of work done and paid for by =
Sonatype,

It has a great deal to do with that. No one can keep up with full-time =
people but that doesn't mean contributions should fall off to zero which =
is what's pretty much happened. Kristian and Olivier being the =
exceptions.

> the dramatic and repeated shift in direction by those paid =
contributions (mercury for example),

That was not a dramatic shift at all. We attempted to make an artifact =
resolution API and the first attempt failed. No shift, a second more =
successful attempt.

> the need to chase code from SVN to GitHub, to still other GitHub =
repositories, and the lack of discussion of the design of any of it?

It was not developed here, you do not have to accept it. I posit we =
would have been in endless debate, no one would have contributed and =
we'd be in the same boat. My conjecture possibly, but no different then =
your view which is also conjecture. The fact is right now we have a =
working library and a way forward. Anyone here who feels I'm limited =
their choice can blame themselves for not participating previously. Yes, =
I felt it would be more expedient to just do it because this project =
needs to get on the rails again and I believe this is one of the =
critical steps. Aether was implemented in a very short period of time. =
There's code there, it works and now people can provide feedback. I =
honestly feel that works better. Yes I told some people about it and not =
others and that was purely a judgement I made based on what people have =
been contributing lately. That's why I didn't develop here because that =
mode of operation is looked dimly upon here so I didn't do it here. And =
I want the velocity to continue, and that just is not going to happen =
here based on my cumulative experience of over 10 years here. I wanted =
to try something different and this is the result. You may not like it, =
you don't have to agree, but you can't make me do what you feel is =
right.

>=20
> It makes me uneasy to see how much this has become a skunkworks type =
of project, where much of the development takes place behind closed =
doors and then gets dumped on the Maven community.

You're entitled to your point of view. I'm interested at this point in =
the efficacy of execution and the survival of the project. Not whether =
everyone has the warm fuzzies. Apart from the Maven 1.x to Maven 2.x =
I've tried not to fuck users and doing so now wouldn't serve my =
commercial or non-commercial efforts.

>=20
> Maven contributors established the foundational concepts (and code, =
from what I can tell) for Aether; Aether is a refactoring of that =
essential design and format. If you expect Maven to use Aether, then the =
Maven community deserves some say in the future of the format and API. =
That's my opinion.
>=20

Just because the code base is not here does not stop you from =
participating. I think that's just something you're going to have to =
reconcile yourself to. I believe the code needs a chance to live outside =
these walls. And Aether is a very different design, sure it borrows =
things from all over the place including here but it's definitely not a =
refactoring.

There isn't just the Apache Way and nothing else. As I've stated before =
Maven 3.0 is an effort at backward compatibility with a way forward. We =
have not gone and secretly and radically changed Maven and dropped Maven =
4 in your laps. We made a library, yes an important one, but it's a =
library nonetheless. I've said that all new features developed in the =
core and that's not going to change. And guess what? There are no new =
features and we've basically be doing the shit work of writing tests for =
2 years that no one has helped with. We made Aether and made it =
compatible, turfed Plexus to be more sensitive to users being confronted =
with my one-off IoC and made it work with all existing code. I don't =
think anyone understands how much work that was. The project would never =
move forward and it would be in a "good enough" state which would leave =
it to be trampled by the competition. I'm just not going to let that =
happen. Some work like what we've done is just never going to happen =
here, and it's definitely not going to happen without millions of =
dollars of concerted effort. Which is where Sonatype is at this point. I =
love that I've been fortunate enough to provide the work that's been =
done. It was the exact same thing with Maven 2.x. If I hadn't start =
Mergere do you think Maven 2.x would exist? I honestly doubt it. I try =
to balance what I think is necessary, and what I can reasonably do at =
Apache and when what I think needs to be done falls outside of those =
parameters I opt out instead of trying to force my opinions on everyone =
here.=20

There are things I believe work best here, like when we start discussion =
outward facing features for Maven 3.1. I don't think that can happen any =
place but here with a lot of discussion as painful as I think that's =
going to be this is the right place to do that. For the bits that are =
really, really hard require dedicated people,  talking on the phone 5 =
times a day and pretty much every other violation of what would be =
considered the Apache Way. Every commercial company involved here =
probably does lots of things like we do but they don't attempt to =
contribute it back. I don't want a disparity in my working life where =
the OSS stuff I work on is good enough and then I have to build around =
it to make something great on the commercial side. I want Maven to be =
great and this is how I approach it.

I'm doing what I think is best for Maven users. If you disagree I'm not =
going to fault you, and I encourage you to do what you think is right. I =
wouldn't ask anything less of anyone involved here.

>=20
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>=20

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
---------------------------------------------------------

happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will
elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come
and sit softly on your shoulder ...

 -- Thoreau=20


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