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From John Casey <>
Subject Re: Merging in our Aether and Guice changes to Maven 3.x
Date Wed, 04 Aug 2010 18:36:56 GMT
I want it to be clear that the _only_ thing I asked for was that the 
Aether API/SPI _specification_ be hosted in a neutral location where 
Maven committers can contribute to the design.

Let me emphasize that: API/SPI only, and in a neutral location. The 
Maven project is not what I'd call "neutral" here.

If, as you claim, the API is set, then we're only talking about the 
future here. We're talking about having open discussions where people 
can have a real vote on new features in the API/SPI.

I believe I'm sufficiently grateful to Benjamin, Kristian, and the 
others for implementing this. From what I can see, it looks like a 
really good way to go, and I have no doubt the code is excellent. And, 
the implementation can live in Timbuktu as far as I'm concerned. I have 
no doubt that you'll publish it so others can use you say, 
that's the whole point.

The _only_ thing I want for my vote to integrate is that we can make 
this API/SPI a standard set of interfaces by making it its own project 
somewhere that Maven committers can get automatic access...and then 
leaving it there. If that's not ASF, I have no problem with that. But I 
think Maven committers should have the automatic ability to participate 
in shaping the Maven's contract with the repository into the future.

This is a critical piece to Maven, and TBH _not_ having this access may 
be part of why projects like Ivy won't use the Maven repository 
code...they aren't represented in the decision-making process.

On 8/4/10 12:57 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> On Aug 4, 2010, at 11:54 AM, John Casey wrote:
>>>> Having a stable set of specifications define their interaction with Maven
would make plugin development and embedding MUCH better. In fact, I think establishing this
practice might be the single best contribution we can make to Maven in the near term.
>> All due respect, but that dodges the question of separating and standardizing the
API from the implementation. It also dodges the discussion about who sets the design of the
repository format and the API spec used to access it.
> To me that's sounds like a bunch of busy work without much value. It works, and it's
going to evolve by having people use it. The ultimate API will never be arrived at without
lots of integrators. That's how everything evolves.
>> You're asking the Maven community to give up one of its greatest creations - the
repository format that has become a de facto standard - and become completely dependent on
a project whose future may be uncertain. It's easy to talk about companies as these fixtures
in the market, but the fact is we're talking about giving complete control over the Maven
repository API / format to a start-up.
> I can't make you, or anyone else, do anything you don't want to do. Vote against it,
implement your own library, I'm not putting a gun to your head. I've done what I feel is best,
I've laid out what I think is best. You can disagree and take action accordingly.
>> Start-ups are not known for their stability. Then, the company in control _may_ decide
(unilaterally) to move the whole shebang to Eclipse. There's absolutely no role for Maven
developers in this model, unless they go out and re-establish their merit on a new project.
> First, the code is ASL so if we rolled over tomorrow then take it. That's really not
a problem. Second, yes we created it so if we want to take it to Eclipse we can do that. People
who do the work get to make choices like that. Eclipse is solid place to do OSS work.
> I'm tired of the endless debates about infrastructure, release process, using git, and
I honestly think Aether not being here is the best thing for getting others involved.
>> I'm not talking about the merit to contribute implementation details - though the
ASF concept of non-expiring merit argues strongly against losing access to that. What I'm
talking about is the right to contribute to the design of the repository format, API, and
SPI (now that I notice that's separate from the API). The language we use to share artifacts
and metadata should not be under the sole control of a private entity.
> That honestly has nothing to do with where the code is. If we shut everyone out, we'd
just be shooting ourselves in the face and ruin any reputation we have of being meaningful
contributors to the Maven ecosystem. That doesn't do Sonatype any good. The argument that
the only place that can be done is simply not true.
>> Sure, there haven't been too many contributors to Maven 3. But how much of that has
to do with the velocity of work done and paid for by Sonatype,
> It has a great deal to do with that. No one can keep up with full-time people but that
doesn't mean contributions should fall off to zero which is what's pretty much happened. Kristian
and Olivier being the exceptions.
>> the dramatic and repeated shift in direction by those paid contributions (mercury
for example),
> That was not a dramatic shift at all. We attempted to make an artifact resolution API
and the first attempt failed. No shift, a second more successful attempt.
>> the need to chase code from SVN to GitHub, to still other GitHub repositories, and
the lack of discussion of the design of any of it?
> It was not developed here, you do not have to accept it. I posit we would have been in
endless debate, no one would have contributed and we'd be in the same boat. My conjecture
possibly, but no different then your view which is also conjecture. The fact is right now
we have a working library and a way forward. Anyone here who feels I'm limited their choice
can blame themselves for not participating previously. Yes, I felt it would be more expedient
to just do it because this project needs to get on the rails again and I believe this is one
of the critical steps. Aether was implemented in a very short period of time. There's code
there, it works and now people can provide feedback. I honestly feel that works better. Yes
I told some people about it and not others and that was purely a judgement I made based on
what people have been contributing lately. That's why I didn't develop here because that mode
of operation is looked dimly upon here so I didn't do it here. And I want 
the velocity to continue, and that just is not going to happen here based on my cumulative
experience of over 10 years here. I wanted to try something different and this is the result.
You may not like it, you don't have to agree, but you can't make me do what you feel is right.
>> It makes me uneasy to see how much this has become a skunkworks type of project,
where much of the development takes place behind closed doors and then gets dumped on the
Maven community.
> You're entitled to your point of view. I'm interested at this point in the efficacy of
execution and the survival of the project. Not whether everyone has the warm fuzzies. Apart
from the Maven 1.x to Maven 2.x I've tried not to fuck users and doing so now wouldn't serve
my commercial or non-commercial efforts.
>> Maven contributors established the foundational concepts (and code, from what I can
tell) for Aether; Aether is a refactoring of that essential design and format. If you expect
Maven to use Aether, then the Maven community deserves some say in the future of the format
and API. That's my opinion.
> Just because the code base is not here does not stop you from participating. I think
that's just something you're going to have to reconcile yourself to. I believe the code needs
a chance to live outside these walls. And Aether is a very different design, sure it borrows
things from all over the place including here but it's definitely not a refactoring.
> There isn't just the Apache Way and nothing else. As I've stated before Maven 3.0 is
an effort at backward compatibility with a way forward. We have not gone and secretly and
radically changed Maven and dropped Maven 4 in your laps. We made a library, yes an important
one, but it's a library nonetheless. I've said that all new features developed in the core
and that's not going to change. And guess what? There are no new features and we've basically
be doing the shit work of writing tests for 2 years that no one has helped with. We made Aether
and made it compatible, turfed Plexus to be more sensitive to users being confronted with
my one-off IoC and made it work with all existing code. I don't think anyone understands how
much work that was. The project would never move forward and it would be in a "good enough"
state which would leave it to be trampled by the competition. I'm just not going to let that
happen. Some work like what we've done is just never going to happen h
ere, and it's definitely not going to happen without millions of dollars of concerted effort.
Which is where Sonatype is at this point. I love that I've been fortunate enough to provide
the work that's been done. It was the exact same thing with Maven 2.x. If I hadn't start Mergere
do you think Maven 2.x would exist? I honestly doubt it. I try to balance what I think is
necessary, and what I can reasonably do at Apache and when what I think needs to be done falls
outside of those parameters I opt out instead of trying to force my opinions on everyone here.
> There are things I believe work best here, like when we start discussion outward facing
features for Maven 3.1. I don't think that can happen any place but here with a lot of discussion
as painful as I think that's going to be this is the right place to do that. For the bits
that are really, really hard require dedicated people,  talking on the phone 5 times a day
and pretty much every other violation of what would be considered the Apache Way. Every commercial
company involved here probably does lots of things like we do but they don't attempt to contribute
it back. I don't want a disparity in my working life where the OSS stuff I work on is good
enough and then I have to build around it to make something great on the commercial side.
I want Maven to be great and this is how I approach it.
> I'm doing what I think is best for Maven users. If you disagree I'm not going to fault
you, and I encourage you to do what you think is right. I wouldn't ask anything less of anyone
involved here.
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Thanks,
> Jason
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will
> elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come
> and sit softly on your shoulder ...
>   -- Thoreau

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