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From Jason van Zyl <>
Subject Re: The Hostile Takeover of Maven
Date Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:55:19 GMT

On 24-Apr-09, at 12:21 AM, nicolas de loof wrote:

> Hi guys,
> The previous translation sounds good, far better that any english I  
> could
> write by myself, as you may notice in following lines ;).
> First of all, this blog was not expected to be offensive. If you  
> consider it
> such please accept my apology, and feel free to attach any comment  
> to expose
> your point of view.

Really. An opening title of "The Hostile Takeover of Maven", siting  
myself in the first sentence and then listing a set of things for  
which make little sense to me so I'll address them as I believe by  
demonstration of your own behavior you have done exactly as I have.  
These sensationalist titles and blogs also immediately make me think  
of consultants abusing their association with the Maven project for  
their own personal gain and notoriety. It's certainly not helping the  
project. You can see the Ivy guy reacting exactly as you planned I'm  
sure. And, of course, by my association with the Maven project I am  
trying to further Sonatype. That is nothing I'm ashamed and I don't  
believe it's bad for the project either. I think I have just a tad  
more justification then you for doing so. This is above all else a  
meritocracy. People often forget here that it is a consensus among  
those who have done work, not just a consensus.

You, Nicolas, have 3 commits on the core of Maven, two of which we  
rolled back because you engaged in zero discussion with the list and  
made changes that were inappropriate. You actually made them to  
benefit Archiva which is a project you work on it while not thinking  
of the greater impact. So the exact thing what you are insinuating  is  
_exactly_ what you did. I know how I work but I don't do one thing and  
say another. Especially about someone else on a public blog about a  
project I'm barely involved in -- and I site the single commit you  
have on the code base you're expounding about. You came into this  
project by association with Archiva and not by way of your sustained  
contribution to Maven. Which may explain the first comment in your blog.

- The creation of Nexus is just my personal project working on it with  
a bunch of my friends.

I don't feel that Archiva is something I wanted to be involved with. I  
preferred to take the oldest known codebase of a Maven repository  
manager (maven proxy I don't consider a manager) and support that  
effort. There were also people in Archiva that I frankly didn't want  
to work with. These are choices that we are all free to make and I  
really don't think that the existence of Nexus has harmed anyone in  
the Maven community. We have very aggressive schedules, we are very  
focused and we are very vocal. I see none of those things as a  
detriment to Maven users.

- The development of Plexus

Plexus is not a Maven project, it's not even an Apache project. But if  
you actually paid attention to the mailing lists of the code base you  
would see code is rapidly being culled and replaced in the hopes of  
being able to swap in Guice. You can get involved in Plexus just like  
you would any external project. Do you complain to the Spring  
developers when they change the internal dependency injection strategy?

- The overhaul of the transport

Have you even looked at the code to see how it works? It's not on by  
default, and as I said to Brett a couple days ago and on the mailing  
list a couple months ago that there are no new features in 3.x. I  
don't think you understand. The only two people who really merit a  
decision in this process are really Brett, Brian and Mark because they  
have each made very significant effort with the code related to that  
part of Maven and it's an incredible amount of work. Oleg has also  
sent many emails and there are lots of documents in the wiki. So there  
is amble place to make comments but this is not something you can just  
dabble in and yes it's hard to keep up when there are people that are  
working on it full time. If you're interested ask, or as Brett as for  
a summary (politely I might add) I will do that.

> My blog is only for personnal opinions and uses a
> caricatural style to get reader post comments. If I hurted you I can  
> post an
> eratum with my apologies, this was not expected to be read at first  
> degree.
> For this reason I choosed this title in relation with current  
> finantial
> activities around SUN & Java

All I can say is not very appropriate. I'll keep the rest of the  
comments to myself and trust me I'm biting my tongue.

> During JUG sessions, many people ask me about maven roadmap, and how  
> the
> project development is planed. Most of them are not used with  
> professional
> opensource, and ask me how a company like Sonatype can get money from
> opensource.

Probably no different then a consultant trying to make money off open  
source. Through involvement and experience you gain the trust of  
people who want to use the projects you work on. It's not that  
complicated. You appear to clearly mention that you're an "Apache  
Maven Committer" on your LinkedIn page so I'm sure what you are trying  
to do is not all together different then what Sonatype is trying to do.

What makes you assume we're making money off Maven? Sonatype's  
business model does have some training and revenue components but  
we're primarily product sales and we do almost no consulting unless it  
relates to our products. So unlike consultants we have less reason to  
push in specific changes that benefit one client. I think we are  
actually in a position where we don't have to do questionable things.  
The massive changes I have in Maven that were client specific I have  
never committed.

> This blog article has been written in reply to such discutions. It  
> tries to
> reflect how Sonatype guys work full-time on maven 3 and related  
> ecosystem to
> be "the maven company". As you may notice, I compare this business  
> model to
> Spring and JBoss way to opensource : open license, project open to
> contribution, but project lead "hosted" by a company.

Except that your comparison is completely and entirely wrong. Sonatype  
is not trying to monetize Maven. We don't even remotely have the same  
business model. All the work we do on Maven is a community service.  
Sure we want recognition but we're not selling an enterprise version  
of Maven, we don't have publicly available forked versions of Maven  
that we promote and I can tell you our business model includes work on  
Maven that yields no direct return except for good will. If the Maven  
project has crappy technical underpinning it's not very useful for  
people. Yes, Sonatype's business is predicated on the widespread use  
of Maven-based technologies. Our investment is to increase the number  
of Maven users by increasing the quality of Maven itself and have it  
be used more. But that does not just directly benefit us. So how we  
make money is first making sure the ecosystem is healthy because if it  
isn't and people think we're doing devious things to then our entire  
model crumbles. Without a healthy Maven community we have no business.  
We invest in Maven without the expectation of a direct return.

We've invested in remaking Archetype, a couple full-time employees  
working on the 2.x codebase to make sure releases continue, work on  
evolving the artifact system, the transport system, Brian spends a ton  
of time setting up things like Nexus (and yes it's our product but yes  
it is useful to Maven users nonetheless), the Maven book, m2eclipse +  
book, Nexus + book so I think we're doing a lot for the community. We  
definitely hope people recognize this and see because of this we  
understand the ecosystem of tools very well and puts us in a position  
to make great products that fit well in the ecosystem. I think  
Sonatype has done a pretty good job balancing our community and  
commercial interests.

> As Daniel said, I really like Maven, I really like the maven 3  
> roadmap you
> described (the post was also a way to link to the video). I also  
> don't like
> the current dev process : "release early, release often" - it tooks  
> 6 month
> between two minor maven 2.0 release, we hardly got a maven 2.1 build.

So what are you doing about it? Aside from complaining? Seriously? You  
don't even ask for a summary of what you want, you just post a  
diatribe which doesn't do the community any good.

> I
> don't say people here are not activelly contributing : the dev  
> community is
> working hard and I myslef hardly find time to contribute  
> significantly. I
> just thing we miss a good roadmap plan. Maven 2.x just have one from  
> few
> time, maven 3 is still a "will be great, bu when" project.
> Please post any comment you feel usefull for users to understand  
> your idea
> of maven future.
> Thanks all
> Cheers,
> Nicolas
> 2009/4/24 Jason van Zyl <>
>> On 23-Apr-09, at 11:19 PM, Daniel Le Berre wrote:
>> Jason,
>>> The summary is perfectly correct.
>>> I would add that the author mentions too that your are friends,  
>>> and the
>>> way the text is written is not offensive.
>> Good thing you translated. From the title and the Google translated  
>> text I
>> read it as offensive. We are not friends so I would guess an  
>> attempt at
>> sarcasm.
>> (The author clearly does not agree with current maven development  
>> process,
>>> he would like it be more community driven,
>>> but it looks like Maven still has some values on his eyes).
>>>       Daniel
>>> Le 24 avr. 09 à 01:52, Jason van Zyl a écrit :
>>>> Thanks if that seems like a reasonable translation I will respond.
>>>> On 23-Apr-09, at 4:00 PM, Christian Edward Gruber wrote:
>>>> My french isn't perfect, but the article basically...
>>>>> <summary>
>>>>> ...argues against you (Jason) personally having the habit of   
>>>>> imposing
>>>>> dramatic changes by presenting them as a fait-acomplis.
>>>>> There's a bit of a bill of rights:  We have the right to choose  
>>>>> archiva
>>>>> or nexus (which he labels as Jason & Friends' personal project),
>>>>> the right
>>>>> to replace plexus with XBR?, the right not to have wagon  
>>>>> replaced by the
>>>>> jetty team without discussion (or something like that), and  
>>>>> something about
>>>>> you "offering" to integrate this person's GWT plugin and have it  
>>>>> hosted at
>>>>> sonatype  (with a sarcastic "what an honour" at the end).
>>>>> Essentially it's an argument that you and your buddies have  
>>>>> created a
>>>>> "putch" and taken over what should be an egalitarian, apache- 
>>>>> itarian
>>>>> project.  But it's now your little pet project (you and your  
>>>>> friends).
>>>>> There's a bit about Eugene's being excluded because he doesn't  
>>>>> have the
>>>>> same high-profile as the rest of the team, etc.
>>>>> He believes in the potential, even if M3 looks like  far-off  
>>>>> promise,
>>>>> but he's got a problem with the attitude of the core group.  He  
>>>>> thinks
>>>>> Maven's going the way of JBoss and Spring and becoming a  
>>>>> "closed" opensource
>>>>> project.  The whole thing's nearly entirely under the control of  
>>>>> the
>>>>> Sonatype people... how long until a "Maven Pro" comes out?
>>>>> If things continue this way, he's going to have to revisit Ant  
>>>>> and Ivy.
>>>>> </summary>
>>>>> Fun fun fun.  My own 2c... I don't care if Sonatype, codehaus,  
>>>>> or an
>>>>> anarchic comune develops it, as long as they're responsive to  
>>>>> bright ideas
>>>>> from the community and keep it open source.  As far as I can  
>>>>> tell, Jason,
>>>>> Brett, John, Emmanuel, and a host of others have done awesome  
>>>>> things.  I
>>>>> don't see Nexus as nefariously excluding Archiva, nor any other
>>>>> maven-launched projects like Continuum, etc.  I just see this  
>>>>> all as churn
>>>>> in the community as different ideas are tried.    As long as  
>>>>> we're not
>>>>> locked in, I have no problems with that.  I know no one asked my  
>>>>> opinion,
>>>>> but there it is.
>>>>> cheers
>>>>> Christian.
>>>>> Could someone who speaks French please translate this for me  
>>>>> before I
>>>>>> respond:
>>>>>> I'm not a native French speaker so I won't speculate, but if  
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> would translate I would like to respond.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good  
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> can fix bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people.
>>>>>> -- Paul Graham
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>>> Christian Edward Gruber
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jason
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> A man enjoys his work when he understands the whole and when he
>>>> is responsible for the quality of the whole
>>>> -- Christopher Alexander, A Pattern Language
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> Thanks,
>> Jason
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Jason van Zyl
>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
>> and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
>> -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven

the course of true love never did run smooth ...

  -- Shakespeare

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