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From nicolas de loof <nicolas.del...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: The Hostile Takeover of Maven
Date Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:37:10 GMT
Hi,(Hope my poor english will not create nonsense here)

Thanks for your reply, whatever can be said against my contribution to Maven
core :p

I fully agree I was not a usefull contributor to maven core. The main
reasons are

- lack of time : I'm not a self-employee man. I get not a cents fom maven -
maybe I'll with the incoming french book, but that lot's of efforts for few
money. I like maven and want it to be as good as possible.

- hard to understand design. Sory to say that lack of typed collections /
javadoc on APIs don't help to understand internals, even for plugin
developpers

- use of (maybe technologically excellent but) exotic and poorly documented
tools. This don't make things easy for a newbee developer to bring good code
in SVN.


I'd be pleased to contribute more to maven-core. To be honnest, I've
allready so much to do on plugins - maybe the visible part of the iceberg,
but the one users request features

For more and better contributions I'd need a cleaner view on maven short
term roadmap. The maven 3.x plan is a very high level and I have not spare
enough time to try understand it. The 2.2 release seems more accessible to
me, and I plan to contribute more to this branch when I get time for it.

I really consider you make a technically great job on maven trunk, and want
Sonatype to stay a main supporter or opensource maven. I just don't like the
idea that people not working full time on maven have few chance to get into
the project.

I'd like to see a real roadmap for maven 2.x and 3.x, not just few pages on
wiki. I'd like to know WHY we have replaced Foo with Bar not having to
search the mailing list history (@see the proposal wikis used on apache
commons for sample). I'd like to ensure some major discution don't occured
on IRC when I'm sleeping ;)

To make things shorter, I'd like to see Maven beeing documented on what we
want it to be and how we plan to do so. Nowaday I can't find anything
concrete about this.

Maybe I'm not community-compliant with such expectation, maybe I can get
blamed to publicly claim my point of view, maybe I missunderstood Sonatype
implication on Maven development and maybe I'd better focus on Archiva and
forget maven-core. If you thing so, please remove my write permission on
maven-core SVN. I just would like to keep it on core-plugins if possible, as
those one require people if we expect to get more frequent releases.

Have a nice week-end,
Cheers,
Nicolas







2009/4/30 Jason van Zyl <jvanzyl@sonatype.com>

>
> On 24-Apr-09, at 12:21 AM, nicolas de loof wrote:
>
>  Hi guys,
>> The previous translation sounds good, far better that any english I could
>> write by myself, as you may notice in following lines ;).
>>
>> First of all, this blog was not expected to be offensive. If you consider
>> it
>> such please accept my apology, and feel free to attach any comment to
>> expose
>> your point of view.
>>
>
> Really. An opening title of "The Hostile Takeover of Maven", siting myself
> in the first sentence and then listing a set of things for which make little
> sense to me so I'll address them as I believe by demonstration of your own
> behavior you have done exactly as I have. These sensationalist titles and
> blogs also immediately make me think of consultants abusing their
> association with the Maven project for their own personal gain and
> notoriety. It's certainly not helping the project. You can see the Ivy guy
> reacting exactly as you planned I'm sure. And, of course, by my association
> with the Maven project I am trying to further Sonatype. That is nothing I'm
> ashamed and I don't believe it's bad for the project either. I think I have
> just a tad more justification then you for doing so. This is above all else
> a meritocracy. People often forget here that it is a consensus among those
> who have done work, not just a consensus.
>
> You, Nicolas, have 3 commits on the core of Maven, two of which we rolled
> back because you engaged in zero discussion with the list and made changes
> that were inappropriate. You actually made them to benefit Archiva which is
> a project you work on it while not thinking of the greater impact. So the
> exact thing what you are insinuating  is _exactly_ what you did. I know how
> I work but I don't do one thing and say another. Especially about someone
> else on a public blog about a project I'm barely involved in -- and I site
> the single commit you have on the code base you're expounding about. You
> came into this project by association with Archiva and not by way of your
> sustained contribution to Maven. Which may explain the first comment in your
> blog.
>
> - The creation of Nexus is just my personal project working on it with a
> bunch of my friends.
>
> I don't feel that Archiva is something I wanted to be involved with. I
> preferred to take the oldest known codebase of a Maven repository manager
> (maven proxy I don't consider a manager) and support that effort. There were
> also people in Archiva that I frankly didn't want to work with. These are
> choices that we are all free to make and I really don't think that the
> existence of Nexus has harmed anyone in the Maven community. We have very
> aggressive schedules, we are very focused and we are very vocal. I see none
> of those things as a detriment to Maven users.
>
> - The development of Plexus
>
> Plexus is not a Maven project, it's not even an Apache project. But if you
> actually paid attention to the mailing lists of the code base you would see
> code is rapidly being culled and replaced in the hopes of being able to swap
> in Guice. You can get involved in Plexus just like you would any external
> project. Do you complain to the Spring developers when they change the
> internal dependency injection strategy?
>
> - The overhaul of the transport
>
> Have you even looked at the code to see how it works? It's not on by
> default, and as I said to Brett a couple days ago and on the mailing list a
> couple months ago that there are no new features in 3.x. I don't think you
> understand. The only two people who really merit a decision in this process
> are really Brett, Brian and Mark because they have each made very
> significant effort with the code related to that part of Maven and it's an
> incredible amount of work. Oleg has also sent many emails and there are lots
> of documents in the wiki. So there is amble place to make comments but this
> is not something you can just dabble in and yes it's hard to keep up when
> there are people that are working on it full time. If you're interested ask,
> or as Brett as for a summary (politely I might add) I will do that.
>
>  My blog is only for personnal opinions and uses a
>> caricatural style to get reader post comments. If I hurted you I can post
>> an
>> eratum with my apologies, this was not expected to be read at first
>> degree.
>> For this reason I choosed this title in relation with current finantial
>> activities around SUN & Java
>>
>
> All I can say is not very appropriate. I'll keep the rest of the comments
> to myself and trust me I'm biting my tongue.
>
>
>> During JUG sessions, many people ask me about maven roadmap, and how the
>> project development is planed. Most of them are not used with professional
>> opensource, and ask me how a company like Sonatype can get money from
>> opensource.
>>
>>
> Probably no different then a consultant trying to make money off open
> source. Through involvement and experience you gain the trust of people who
> want to use the projects you work on. It's not that complicated. You appear
> to clearly mention that you're an "Apache Maven Committer" on your LinkedIn
> page so I'm sure what you are trying to do is not all together different
> then what Sonatype is trying to do.
>
> What makes you assume we're making money off Maven? Sonatype's business
> model does have some training and revenue components but we're primarily
> product sales and we do almost no consulting unless it relates to our
> products. So unlike consultants we have less reason to push in specific
> changes that benefit one client. I think we are actually in a position where
> we don't have to do questionable things. The massive changes I have in Maven
> that were client specific I have never committed.
>
>  This blog article has been written in reply to such discutions. It tries
>> to
>> reflect how Sonatype guys work full-time on maven 3 and related ecosystem
>> to
>> be "the maven company". As you may notice, I compare this business model
>> to
>> Spring and JBoss way to opensource : open license, project open to
>> contribution, but project lead "hosted" by a company.
>>
>
> Except that your comparison is completely and entirely wrong. Sonatype is
> not trying to monetize Maven. We don't even remotely have the same business
> model. All the work we do on Maven is a community service. Sure we want
> recognition but we're not selling an enterprise version of Maven, we don't
> have publicly available forked versions of Maven that we promote and I can
> tell you our business model includes work on Maven that yields no direct
> return except for good will. If the Maven project has crappy technical
> underpinning it's not very useful for people. Yes, Sonatype's business is
> predicated on the widespread use of Maven-based technologies. Our investment
> is to increase the number of Maven users by increasing the quality of Maven
> itself and have it be used more. But that does not just directly benefit us.
> So how we make money is first making sure the ecosystem is healthy because
> if it isn't and people think we're doing devious things to then our entire
> model crumbles. Without a healthy Maven community we have no business. We
> invest in Maven without the expectation of a direct return.
>
> We've invested in remaking Archetype, a couple full-time employees working
> on the 2.x codebase to make sure releases continue, work on evolving the
> artifact system, the transport system, Brian spends a ton of time setting up
> things like Nexus (and yes it's our product but yes it is useful to Maven
> users nonetheless), the Maven book, m2eclipse + book, Nexus + book so I
> think we're doing a lot for the community. We definitely hope people
> recognize this and see because of this we understand the ecosystem of tools
> very well and puts us in a position to make great products that fit well in
> the ecosystem. I think Sonatype has done a pretty good job balancing our
> community and commercial interests.
>
>
>> As Daniel said, I really like Maven, I really like the maven 3 roadmap you
>> described (the post was also a way to link to the video). I also don't
>> like
>> the current dev process : "release early, release often" - it tooks 6
>> month
>> between two minor maven 2.0 release, we hardly got a maven 2.1 build.
>>
>
> So what are you doing about it? Aside from complaining? Seriously? You
> don't even ask for a summary of what you want, you just post a diatribe
> which doesn't do the community any good.
>
>
>  I
>> don't say people here are not activelly contributing : the dev community
>> is
>> working hard and I myslef hardly find time to contribute significantly. I
>> just thing we miss a good roadmap plan. Maven 2.x just have one from few
>> time, maven 3 is still a "will be great, bu when" project.
>>
>>
>> Please post any comment you feel usefull for users to understand your idea
>> of maven future.
>>
>> Thanks all
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Nicolas
>>
>>
>>
>> 2009/4/24 Jason van Zyl <jvanzyl@sonatype.com>
>>
>>
>>> On 23-Apr-09, at 11:19 PM, Daniel Le Berre wrote:
>>>
>>> Jason,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The summary is perfectly correct.
>>>>
>>>> I would add that the author mentions too that your are friends, and the
>>>> way the text is written is not offensive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Good thing you translated. From the title and the Google translated text
>>> I
>>> read it as offensive. We are not friends so I would guess an attempt at
>>> sarcasm.
>>>
>>>
>>> (The author clearly does not agree with current maven development
>>> process,
>>>
>>>> he would like it be more community driven,
>>>> but it looks like Maven still has some values on his eyes).
>>>>
>>>>      Daniel
>>>>
>>>> Le 24 avr. 09 à 01:52, Jason van Zyl a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks if that seems like a reasonable translation I will respond.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 23-Apr-09, at 4:00 PM, Christian Edward Gruber wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My french isn't perfect, but the article basically...
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <summary>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...argues against you (Jason) personally having the habit of  imposing
>>>>>> dramatic changes by presenting them as a fait-acomplis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a bit of a bill of rights:  We have the right to choose
>>>>>> archiva
>>>>>> or nexus (which he labels as Jason & Friends' personal project),
the
>>>>>> right
>>>>>> to replace plexus with XBR?, the right not to have wagon replaced
by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> jetty team without discussion (or something like that), and something
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> you "offering" to integrate this person's GWT plugin and have it
>>>>>> hosted at
>>>>>> sonatype  (with a sarcastic "what an honour" at the end).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Essentially it's an argument that you and your buddies have created
a
>>>>>> "putch" and taken over what should be an egalitarian, apache-itarian
>>>>>> project.  But it's now your little pet project (you and your friends).
>>>>>> There's a bit about Eugene's being excluded because he doesn't have
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> same high-profile as the rest of the team, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He believes in the potential, even if M3 looks like  far-off promise,
>>>>>> but he's got a problem with the attitude of the core group.  He thinks
>>>>>> Maven's going the way of JBoss and Spring and becoming a "closed"
>>>>>> opensource
>>>>>> project.  The whole thing's nearly entirely under the control of
the
>>>>>> Sonatype people... how long until a "Maven Pro" comes out?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If things continue this way, he's going to have to revisit Ant and
>>>>>> Ivy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> </summary>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fun fun fun.  My own 2c... I don't care if Sonatype, codehaus, or
an
>>>>>> anarchic comune develops it, as long as they're responsive to bright
>>>>>> ideas
>>>>>> from the community and keep it open source.  As far as I can tell,
>>>>>> Jason,
>>>>>> Brett, John, Emmanuel, and a host of others have done awesome things.
>>>>>>  I
>>>>>> don't see Nexus as nefariously excluding Archiva, nor any other
>>>>>> maven-launched projects like Continuum, etc.  I just see this all
as
>>>>>> churn
>>>>>> in the community as different ideas are tried.    As long as we're
not
>>>>>> locked in, I have no problems with that.  I know no one asked my
>>>>>> opinion,
>>>>>> but there it is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>> Christian.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could someone who speaks French please translate this for me before
I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> respond:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://blog.loof.fr/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not a native French speaker so I won't speculate, but if
someone
>>>>>>> would translate I would like to respond.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good
people
>>>>>>> can fix bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Paul Graham
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Christian Edward Gruber
>>>>>> christianedwardgruber@gmail.com
>>>>>> http://www.geekinasuit.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> A man enjoys his work when he understands the whole and when he
>>>>> is responsible for the quality of the whole
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Christopher Alexander, A Pattern Language
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> Jason van Zyl
>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
>>> and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
>>>
>>> -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@maven.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Jason van Zyl
> Founder,  Apache Maven
> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
> http://twitter.com/SonatypeNexus
> http://twitter.com/SonatypeM2E
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> the course of true love never did run smooth ...
>
>  -- Shakespeare
>
>

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