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Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:47:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Shay Banon <kimchy@gmail.com>
To: java-user@lucene.apache.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: Hibernate Lucene trademark issues
In-Reply-To: <455F38BC.1040104@hibernate.org>
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References: <52c3ddca0611170437o36eb140cqcd344b8b4f3972e0@mail.gmail.com>
 <455F1706.50905@hibernate.org> <455F38BC.1040104@hibernate.org>


Since I do not want to invade Lucene user list regarding a discussion about
Compass and Hiberante Search, but I still think that it is something that
needs to get answered, here is a link to my blog post discussing this:
http://jroller.com/page/kimchy?entry=hibernate_search_lucene .

Cheers,
Shay


Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
> 
> I forgot a couple of things.
> I do not think that all your object properties belongs to the Index, and 
> some of them will be put in the index with information degradation (ie 
> store year/month rather than the whole date). So I do not believe there 
> is a bidirectional relationship between your domain model and your index 
> documents (for size, efficiency and accuracy purpose).
> For that matter, Compass cannot really truly index your database backed 
> domain model and give back the object to you. Hibernate Search can 
> because it delegate the object hydration to Hibernate Core.
> 
> Of course that's my opinions, and some people can disagree ;-)
> 
> Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> I am not really familiar with Compass I haven't really looked at the
>> code, Hibernate Lucene (now renamed Hibernate Search) started from a
>> user demand. I had some in depth discussions though, with some users
>> that evaluated both Compass and Hibernate Search that helped me drive
>> its design.
>>
>> Here are the arguments in favor of Hibernate Search:
>> 1. not Yet Another API to deal with your domain model
>> If you already use an ORM (JPA or Hibernate), you are familiar with
>> those APIs. Using compass implies that you have to use a different set
>> of API to play with the object lifecycle (CRUD).
>> Hibernate Search is integrated with the org.hibernate.Query interface,
>> and all the CUD operations on the index are triggered from the Hibernate
>> CUD operations.
>>
>> 2. Metadata
>> Metadata are minimal and fit particularly well through annotations, so
>> you don't have yet another XML representation of ther same domain model
>> (Compass might now have annotations support, you'll have to check)
>>
>> 3. it's all about managed objects (ie managed by the Session or the
>> EntityManager)
>> Hibernate Search gives you back objects managed by the Session, so any
>> change made to them will (by default) be synchronized with the database,
>> this is the normal behavior of an ORM, but is not what you have from a
>> Compass search.
>> This approach fits well with the JBoss Seam approach of having all the
>> application around the domain model and EJB 3.0
>>
>> 4. Not too much abstraction
>>  From what I've heard, Compass borrow a lot of its design / classnames
>> from Hibernate/Spring/Lucene. Compass tries to abstract those 3
>> techlnologies (at least Hibernate and Lucene), by providing its own
>> infrastructure.
>> What am trying to do with Hibernate Search is to keep the abstraction as
>> light as possible. For advanced Lucene query you'll have to use pure
>> Lucene APIs, which is possible / natural with Hibernate Search
>>
>>
>> I invite you to check these links (which I expect to release soon)
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-dev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
>> and for the future (but flexible)
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-dev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00393.html
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Emmanuel
>>
>> Lukas Vlcek wrote:
>> >
>> > Emanuael,
>> > I would be glad to hear your answer here (on user list).
>> > Regards,
>> > Lukas
>> >
>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> > From: Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel@hibernate.org>
>> > Date: Nov 13, 2006 11:07 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Hibernate Lucene trademark issues
>> > To: java-dev@lucene.apache.org, lukas.vlcek@gmail.com
>> >
>> > Hi Lukas,
>> > I'd be happy to answer your question, but I don't think Lucene dev is
>> > the appropriate area for that kind of discussion.
>> > let's move this discussion here
>> > http://forum.hibernate.org/viewforum.php?f=9 (or in the Lucene User
>> list
>> > if you want to).
>> >
>> > Emmanuel
>> >
>> > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Hi Emmanuel,
>> > >
>> > > I am interested in you solution. I have a plan to use lucene and
>> > hibernate
>> > > in my next project and search will play very important role
>> > > (*stake-holder*
>> > > functionality). I have heard of
>> > > comapss<http://www.opensymphony.com/compass/>project which introduces
>> > > searching (lucene) layer on top of hibernate also.
>> > > I haven't had a change to study it in detail yet.
>> > >
>> > > Do you think you could give me some high level comments about your
>> > > motivation for implementing lucene search directly in hibernate code,
>> > > couldn't you just use compass project? Is there any fundamental
>> > difference
>> > > between your approach and comapss?
>> > >
>> > > Many thanks,
>> > > Lukas
>> > >
>> > > On 11/6/06, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel@hibernate.org> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi guys,
>> > > > I'm Emmanuel Bernard from JBoss.
>> > > > I'm the current lead developer of the Hibernate Lucene integration
>> > > module.
>> > > > The goal of this project is to facilitate the integration of a 
>> search
>> > > > capability to Hibernate based applications. And guess what, I use
>> > Lucene
>> > > > ;-)
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > 
>> http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/annotations/reference/en/html/lucene.html
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-dev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
>> > > >
>> > > > I realized this week end that the 'Hibernate Lucene' name might
>> > infringe
>> > > > the Apache Lucene trademark policy.
>> > > > http://www.cafepress.com/lucene/ seems to state that Lucene is a
>> > > > trademark of the Apache Software Foundation (nice golf shirt BTW)
>> > > > But I wasn't able to find any document explaining the fair use 
>> of the
>> > > > Lucene brand (the license as well as the notice seem to be silent
>> on
>> > > > this subject).
>> > > >
>> > > > Even if Lucene in not trademarked, what do you consider a fair 
>> use of
>> > > > your brand? I'm happy to rename my project, I guess the initial 
>> choice
>> > > > was more a tribute to your project than anything else.
>> > > >
>> > > > Emmanuel
>> > > >
>> > > > PS: please forward this email to the appropriate persons if this
>> > is not
>> > > > the case already (PMC or whatever)
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-dev-unsubscribe@lucene.apache.org
>> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: java-dev-help@lucene.apache.org
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
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> 
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