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From Emmanuel Bernard <emman...@hibernate.org>
Subject Re: Fwd: Hibernate Lucene trademark issues
Date Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:59:39 GMT
Hi Jin,
I'll answer your email on the hibernate dev list.
See you there :-)

Jin Yiqing wrote:
>
> Hi,Emmanuel
> i think you did a very greate job!  Since i am now working on a system 
> that
> using lucene to implement a search engine, i would like to know some more
> details about Hinbernate Search.
>
>   I have read some of the code in Hinbernate 3.2GA release, the code is
> pretty cool, but  there is one thing i doubt:
>
>   For the update operation Hibernate Search used remove & update.which 
> refer
> to Lucene's deleteDocuments method.  That's ok and i also could only find
> this way to update the index data. This will works fine when the operation
> does not have high frequency.
>
> But as i know  the remove operation in lucene only marked a tag for the
> deleted document without actually delete the data ofr index files.  We 
> know
> in some systems the data would be updated in a very high  frequency(eg. an
> traffic status query system), then it will not take a long time that the
> index will be filled with lots of expired document data,  even if the data
> update is not as fast as a traffic status, i think this problem is still
> very critical since things we stored in databases are always updating.
>
>  Is there any way to solve this in Hibernate Search?
>
>
> Richie
>
>
> 2006/11/19, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel@hibernate.org>:
> >
> > I forgot a couple of things.
> > I do not think that all your object properties belongs to the Index, and
> > some of them will be put in the index with information degradation (ie
> > store year/month rather than the whole date). So I do not believe there
> > is a bidirectional relationship between your domain model and your index
> > documents (for size, efficiency and accuracy purpose).
> > For that matter, Compass cannot really truly index your database backed
> > domain model and give back the object to you. Hibernate Search can
> > because it delegate the object hydration to Hibernate Core.
> >
> > Of course that's my opinions, and some people can disagree ;-)
> >
> > Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > I am not really familiar with Compass I haven't really looked at the
> > > code, Hibernate Lucene (now renamed Hibernate Search) started from a
> > > user demand. I had some in depth discussions though, with some users
> > > that evaluated both Compass and Hibernate Search that helped me drive
> > > its design.
> > >
> > > Here are the arguments in favor of Hibernate Search:
> > > 1. not Yet Another API to deal with your domain model
> > > If you already use an ORM (JPA or Hibernate), you are familiar with
> > > those APIs. Using compass implies that you have to use a different set
> > > of API to play with the object lifecycle (CRUD).
> > > Hibernate Search is integrated with the org.hibernate.Query interface,
> > > and all the CUD operations on the index are triggered from the 
> Hibernate
> > > CUD operations.
> > >
> > > 2. Metadata
> > > Metadata are minimal and fit particularly well through annotations, so
> > > you don't have yet another XML representation of ther same domain 
> model
> > > (Compass might now have annotations support, you'll have to check)
> > >
> > > 3. it's all about managed objects (ie managed by the Session or the
> > > EntityManager)
> > > Hibernate Search gives you back objects managed by the Session, so any
> > > change made to them will (by default) be synchronized with the 
> database,
> > > this is the normal behavior of an ORM, but is not what you have from a
> > > Compass search.
> > > This approach fits well with the JBoss Seam approach of having all the
> > > application around the domain model and EJB 3.0
> > >
> > > 4. Not too much abstraction
> > >  From what I've heard, Compass borrow a lot of its design / classnames
> > > from Hibernate/Spring/Lucene. Compass tries to abstract those 3
> > > techlnologies (at least Hibernate and Lucene), by providing its own
> > > infrastructure.
> > > What am trying to do with Hibernate Search is to keep the 
> abstraction as
> > > light as possible. For advanced Lucene query you'll have to use pure
> > > Lucene APIs, which is possible / natural with Hibernate Search
> > >
> > >
> > > I invite you to check these links (which I expect to release soon)
> > >
> > 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-dev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> > > and for the future (but flexible)
> > >
> > 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-dev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00393.html
> > >
> > > HTH
> > >
> > > Emmanuel
> > >
> > > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Emanuael,
> > > > I would be glad to hear your answer here (on user list).
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Lukas
> > > >
> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > > From: Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel@hibernate.org>
> > > > Date: Nov 13, 2006 11:07 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Hibernate Lucene trademark issues
> > > > To: java-dev@lucene.apache.org, lukas.vlcek@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > Hi Lukas,
> > > > I'd be happy to answer your question, but I don't think Lucene 
> dev is
> > > > the appropriate area for that kind of discussion.
> > > > let's move this discussion here
> > > > http://forum.hibernate.org/viewforum.php?f=9 (or in the Lucene User
> > list
> > > > if you want to).
> > > >
> > > > Emmanuel
> > > >
> > > > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Emmanuel,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am interested in you solution. I have a plan to use lucene and
> > > > hibernate
> > > > > in my next project and search will play very important role
> > > > > (*stake-holder*
> > > > > functionality). I have heard of
> > > > > comapss<http://www.opensymphony.com/compass/>project which
> > introduces
> > > > > searching (lucene) layer on top of hibernate also.
> > > > > I haven't had a change to study it in detail yet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you think you could give me some high level comments about your
> > > > > motivation for implementing lucene search directly in hibernate
> > code,
> > > > > couldn't you just use compass project? Is there any fundamental
> > > > difference
> > > > > between your approach and comapss?
> > > > >
> > > > > Many thanks,
> > > > > Lukas
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11/6/06, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel@hibernate.org> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi guys,
> > > > > > I'm Emmanuel Bernard from JBoss.
> > > > > > I'm the current lead developer of the Hibernate Lucene 
> integration
> > > > > module.
> > > > > > The goal of this project is to facilitate the integration of
a
> > > search
> > > > > > capability to Hibernate based applications. And guess what,

> I use
> > > > Lucene
> > > > > > ;-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/annotations/reference/en/html/lucene.html
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-dev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I realized this week end that the 'Hibernate Lucene' name might
> > > > infringe
> > > > > > the Apache Lucene trademark policy.
> > > > > > http://www.cafepress.com/lucene/ seems to state that Lucene
is a
> > > > > > trademark of the Apache Software Foundation (nice golf shirt

> BTW)
> > > > > > But I wasn't able to find any document explaining the fair use
> > > of the
> > > > > > Lucene brand (the license as well as the notice seem to be 
> silent
> > on
> > > > > > this subject).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Even if Lucene in not trademarked, what do you consider a fair
> > > use of
> > > > > > your brand? I'm happy to rename my project, I guess the initial
> > > choice
> > > > > > was more a tribute to your project than anything else.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Emmanuel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS: please forward this email to the appropriate persons if
this
> > > > is not
> > > > > > the case already (PMC or whatever)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
> >
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> >
> >
>

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