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From Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Create Solr TLP
Date Wed, 27 Apr 2011 11:43:52 GMT

On Apr 27, 2011, at 5:49 AM, Michael McCandless wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 8:12 PM, Mark Miller <markrmiller@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Consider this: if you did the work necessary to make join a module and polished it
all off and submitted it to Lucene - you think yonik standing alone would block that?
> 
> In fact I do think he may object to it, given his past actions, his
> statements on private emails/IRCs, etc., and that really is the core
> problem here.
> 
> For example, he vetoed the suggest module (now rescinded after Greg's
> intervention).

Clearly in response to Robert reverting his commit.


> 
> The private email Yonik sent a few weeks back (to only certain
> hand-picked committers) clearly applies here.
> 
> Yonik, since this is all out here in the open now, can you re-send
> that email to all of us (general@)?  There's no reason for it to have
> been / now remain private?

Yonik might object!? Of course he might. We all object different things all the time. This
is not a block IMO. If the join module comes tomorrow, Yonik objects, the rest +1 - that is
the likely scenario.

> 
>> I find this a very weak argument. Perceived road blocks are certainly no roadblock.
> 
> They are a roadblock because they are a powerful deterrent.

It's up to each person to determine this on the inside I guess. Some of the more aggressive
new guys are a powerful deterrent to working in Lucene land sometimes too - the spirits can
run high - that doesn't mean they control things.

> 
> Refactoring is a lot of work, and it's non-glorious work.  When
> someone has the itch, it's usually not a super strong itch, and so
> fear-of-Yonik-disasgreeing can easily defeat that itch.

Yeah? Welcome to open source. Not everything is easy - you might have to face disagreement.
With consensus on your side, I'm going to argue again - if someone made a join module for
Lucene, Yonik would not stop it. I don't know when he became so powerful, but it's not the
Apache way, and I don't buy it and I don't operate that way.

> 
> It's not unlike how a bully is able to "control" so many kids in the
> school yard.  One bully's actions has wide ranging [negative] impact.

I think we fundamentally disagree on the bullying that sometimes goes on.

> 
>> Revert wars are a road block
> 
> Remember that Yonik has also unilaterally up and reverted a commit
> without discussion ("auto phrasing" enabled in Solr's defaults).  And
> his revert still stands to this day.  Really the PMC should have
> intervened then.

Meh - consensus was to keep the default - yonik changed it back to consensus. Its a difficult
issue to pile onto this one - but if Robert wants to readdress that issue, certainly he could
bring it up, certainly he could change it again. He doesnt seem to afraid of Yonik the bully
to me.

> 
> While I agree, out of context, Robert's use of a veto/revert wars is
> inappropriate, and is not how things should be done in a healthy
> Apache project.... Lucene/Solr are not healthy right now, and
> desperate times call for desperate measures.

Woah. I hope thats not using your PMC hat. I think even in context roberts behavior was inappropriate,
and I think desperate measures are so wrong here. I'm surprised you defend these actions.
It really worries me coming from you.

> 
> Set in the wider context, Robert's veto has finally succeeded in
> getting us talking about the elephant in the room when other's (eg
> Simon's) efforts haven't.

Finally succeeded? This is far from the first time we have dug in. And it doesnt take a physical
code fight to do it - trust me.

>  Robert has forced the issue out into the
> open, not unlike when someone in the school yard has had enough and
> finally stands up to the bully.

The school yard kid scares a lot of people himself. This whole characterization of yours doesn't
jive to me at all.


> 
> Mike
> 
> http://blog.mikemccandless.com

- Mark Miller
lucidimagination.com

Lucene/Solr User Conference
May 25-26, San Francisco
www.lucenerevolution.org






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