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From Simon Willnauer <>
Subject Re: [PMC] [DISCUSS] Lucy
Date Sun, 13 Jun 2010 10:30:56 GMT
On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Michael McCandless
<> wrote:
> Technically, it's clear that Lucy is taking an innovative and
> well-thought-out approach, building a search engine that folds in
> what's been learned from all the painful experiences of those before
> it.  Marvin gets to chuckle whenever we have one of our massive back
> compat discussions...
> When it hits its first release it should be a real gem.
> Further, there's no question that Marvin's "closeness" has
> substantially strengthened Lucene (java).  The awesome amount of
> cross-fertilization, discussing design tradeoffs, etc., has led to
> sizable improvements in Lucene (like the switch to per-segment
> searching).
> That said, yes, Lucy doesn't have a large dev community.  And Lucy
> doesn't have any users yet since it has no release (though KS's users
> should "count" here, once Lucy releases).  There's unfortunately (for
> both projects) not enough overlap in the dev communities of Lucene
> (java) and Lucy.  And, Apache does now (for better or worse) strictly
> insist on non-umbrella TLPs.
While I haven't been paying attention to all the Lucy efforts I can't
tell much about the progress neither code nor community wise.
The first thing I have really seen about Lucy was Marvins talk last
year in Oakland, which sounded like the project is getting in good

Yet, what I have see is that Marvin and his effort has been a
tremendous help for the lucene TLP as mike already said.
Unfortunately, the fact that the ASF enforces their non-umbrella TLPs
policy doesn't give us much of a choice. My personal opinion is that
this is rather a chance for Lucy than anything else. As Marvin said,
the KinoSearch community is going to be the Lucy community etc. If
that works out (which I believe in, just because I know marvin as a
person) Lucy will easily succeed and pass incubator.

As a nice side-effect lucy remains in the ASF which I would personally prefer.

> So net/net I'm +1 for Lucy to move to Apache incubator with the
> eventual goal of a separate TLP.

Here is my non-PMC  +1 to move lucy (almost wrote lucene :D) to the
incubator as mike proposed.


> Mike
> On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Grant Ingersoll <> wrote:
>> It's been a while since we've taken a look at Lucy from a PMC standpoint, but I think
it is worth us reviewing once again.  And, while this isn't easy to do because I very much
value Marvin as a member of the Lucene community, I think we need have a frank discussion
about whether Lucy belongs as a Lucene subproject, especially in light of recent Board concerns
about Lucene's umbrella status.
>> Since the last email discussing Lucy, Marvin has been working on it, AFAICT, which
is a good thing.  I still, however, don't think it meets the community standards of the ASF
(see for instance).    For
instance, there does not appear to be anyone else who has contributed to it at any level beyond
the occasional email here and there.  The last email on the dev list from someone other than
Marvin was someone announcing KinoSearch on May 1st.  Before that, it was on April 6.  The
last email on the user list was from Marvin in November of 2009.  And, while Marvin participates
regularly on dev@l.a.o and we have had many cross pollination talks, it does not, unfortunately,
make for a community around Lucy.   There also has yet to be a single release in its time
here.  Even if there were an attempt at a release, how many PMC members even follow Lucy
enough that you feel comfortable voting for a release?
>> If this were a project coming from the Incubator to us via a "graduation vote", I
would vote to not let it graduate.
>> Finally, given that Lucy undoubtedly is a separate community (if it ever exists)
with separate goals from Lucene and that it is considered ASF best practice for PMC's to not
be "umbrella" projects, I think we should consider either Lucy going into the Incubator with
the goal of growing it's own community and standing on it's own as a TLP in its own right
(just as we recommended for CLucene recently) or going to Google Code or some other such hosting
service where it will be free to make decisions on its future without the hinderance of a
PMC that isn't aligned with its needs and objectives, as I believe is the current case with
the Lucene PMC.
>> -Grant

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