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From Michael McCandless <luc...@mikemccandless.com>
Subject Re: Factor out a standalone, shared analysis package for Nutch/Solr/Lucene?
Date Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:22:19 GMT
The possibility of slowing down releases is the only real concern I
also share....

But, I think release frequency is largely a matter of discipline :)

But, digging into it, I think as long as the project keeps a "stable
trunk" (something Lucene has always tried to do -- does Solr?)... then
release frequency is really a matter of discipline.

I mean in Lucene we keep saying we want faster releases, but why
doesn't it happen?  Couldn't we have done 2X as many releases in the
past few years?  Did we "really" want to release more frequently?

If we really want to take it seriously I think we should have someone
unofficially be the next release czar.  As soon as a release is
finished, this czar is responsible for roughly planning the next one.
This means making a tentative schedule, tracking big features and
making sure they land "early" enough to bake fully on trunk, etc.

New modules (eg spatial) need not gate the release -- that module's
docs would call out clearly that it's not fully baked yet...

Mike

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Michael Busch <buschmic@gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems like most of the people agree with these good goals but are
> concerned about the release cycles (including me). How can we achieve these
> goals without making releases more difficult?
>
>  Michael
>
> On 3/1/10 9:44 AM, Michael McCandless wrote:
>>
>> If we don't somehow first address the code duplication across the 2
>> projects, making Solr a TLP will make things worse.
>>
>> I started here with analysis because I think that's the biggest pain
>> point: it seemed like an obvious first step to fixing the code
>> duplication and thus the most likely to reach some consensus.  And
>> it's also very timely: Robert is right now making all kinds of great
>> fixes to our collective analyzers (in between bouts of fuzzy DFA
>> debugging).
>>
>> But it goes beyond analyzers: I'd like to see other modules, now in
>> Solr, eventually moved to Lucene, because they really are "core"
>> functionality (eg facets, function (and other?) queries, spatial,
>> maybe improvements to spellchecker/highlighter).  How can we do this?
>>
>> And how can we do this so that it "lasts" over time?  If new cool
>> "core" things are born in Solr-land (which of course happens alot --
>> lots of good healthy usage), how will they find their way back to
>> Lucene?
>>
>> Yonik's proposal (merging development of Solr/Lucene, but keeping all
>> else separate) would achieve this.
>>
>> If we do the opposite (Solr ->  TLP), how could we possibly achieve
>> this?
>>
>> I guess one possibility is to just suck it up and duplicate the code.
>> Meaning, each project will have to manually merge fixes in from the
>> other project (so long as there's someone around with the itch to do
>> so).  Lucene would copy in all of Solr's analysis, and vice-versa (and
>> likewise other dup'd functionality).  I really dislike this
>> solution... it will confuse the daylights out of users, its error
>> proned, it's a waste of dev effort, there will always be little
>> differences... but maybe it is in fact the lesser evil?
>>
>> I would much prefer merging Solr/Lucene development...
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>> <chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Grant,
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:20 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Robert,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think my proposal (Solr->TLP) is sort of orthogonal to the whole
>>>>> analyzers
>>>>> issue - I was in favor, at the very least, of having a separate
>>>>> module/project/whatever that both Solr/Lucene (and whatever project)
>>>>> can
>>>>> depend on for the shared analyzer code...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not really.  They are intimately linked.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ummm, how so? Making project A called "Apache Super Analyzers" and then
>>> making Lucene(-java) and Solr depend on Apache Super Analyzers is
>>> separate
>>> of whether or not Lucene(-java) and Solr are TLPs or not...
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/1/10 9:12 AM, "Robert Muir"<rcmuir@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> this will make the analyzers duplication problem even worse
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)<
>>>>> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for your message. I respect your viewpoint, but I respectfully
>>>>>> disagree. It just seems (to me at least based on the discussion)
like
>>>>>> a TLP
>>>>>> for Solr is the way to go.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/1/10 8:54 AM, "Mark Miller"<markrmiller@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 03/01/2010 10:40 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That would really be no real world change from how things
work
>>>>>>>> today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is, today, Solr already operates essentially as an independent
>>>>>>>> project.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well if that's the case, then it would lead me to think that
it's
>>>>>>> more of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TLP more than anything else per best practices.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That depends. It could be argued it should be a top level project
or
>>>>>> that it should be closer to the Lucene project. Some people are
>>>>>> arguing
>>>>>> for both approaches right now. There are two directions we could
move
>>>>>> in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only real difference is that it shares the same PMC with
Lucene
>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> wouldn't with this change. This would address none of the
issues
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> triggered
>>>>>>>> the idea for a possible merge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't agree -- you're looking to bring together two communities
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "fairly separate" as you put it. The separation likely didn't
spring
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> over
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> night and has been this way for a while (as least to my knowledge).
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> exactly the type of situation that typically leads to TLP creation
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've seen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It also causes negatives between Solr/Lucene that some are looking
to
>>>>>> address. Hence the birth of this proposal. Going TLP with Solr will
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> aggravate those negatives, not help them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While the communities operate fairly separately at the moment, the
>>>>>> people in the communities are not so separate. The committer list
has
>>>>>> huge overlap. Many committers on one project but not the other do
a
>>>>>> lot
>>>>>> of work on both projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is already a strong link with the personal - merging the
>>>>>> management of the projects addresses many of the concerns that have
>>>>>> prompted this discussion. TLP'ing Solr only makes those concerns
>>>>>> multiply. They would diverge further, and incompatible overlap between
>>>>>> them would increase.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 03/01/2010 10:04 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hey Grant,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd like to explore this<     does this imply that
the Lucene
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sub-projects will
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> go away and Lucene will turn into Lucene-java and maintain
its
>>>>>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TLP,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and then you'd have say, solr.apache.org, tika.apache.org,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mahout.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (already started), etc. etc.? If so, that may be the
best of all
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> worlds,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> allowing project independence, but also not following
the Apache
>>>>>>>>> "antipattern" as Doug put it...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/10 7:28 AM, "Grant Ingersoll"<gsingers@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, as Doug alluded to, the Board is likely to
ask us to
>>>>>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> less
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> subprojects in the future, so we may be consolidating
and spinning
>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>>> Senior Computer Scientist
>>>>>>>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>>>>>>>>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>>>>>>>>> Email: Chris.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov
>>>>>>>>> Phone: +1 (818) 354-8810
>>>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>>>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>>>>>>>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089
USA
>>>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> - Mark
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.lucidimagination.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>>>>>>> Senior Computer Scientist
>>>>>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>>>>>>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>>>>>>> Email: Chris.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov
>>>>>>> WWW:
>>>>>>> http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/<http://sunset.usc.edu/%7Emattmann/>
>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>>>>>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.lucidimagination.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Senior Computer Scientist
>>>>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>>>>>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>>>>>> Email: Chris.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov
>>>>>> WWW:
>>>>>> http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/<http://sunset.usc.edu/%7Emattmann/>
>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>>>>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Robert Muir
>>>>> rcmuir@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>>>>> Senior Computer Scientist
>>>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>>>>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>>>>> Email: Chris.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov
>>>>> WWW:   http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>>>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>>> Senior Computer Scientist
>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>>> Email: Chris.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov
>>> WWW:   http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

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