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From Michael McCandless <luc...@mikemccandless.com>
Subject Re: Factor out a standalone, shared analysis package for Nutch/Solr/Lucene?
Date Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:44:02 GMT
If we don't somehow first address the code duplication across the 2
projects, making Solr a TLP will make things worse.

I started here with analysis because I think that's the biggest pain
point: it seemed like an obvious first step to fixing the code
duplication and thus the most likely to reach some consensus.  And
it's also very timely: Robert is right now making all kinds of great
fixes to our collective analyzers (in between bouts of fuzzy DFA
debugging).

But it goes beyond analyzers: I'd like to see other modules, now in
Solr, eventually moved to Lucene, because they really are "core"
functionality (eg facets, function (and other?) queries, spatial,
maybe improvements to spellchecker/highlighter).  How can we do this?

And how can we do this so that it "lasts" over time?  If new cool
"core" things are born in Solr-land (which of course happens alot --
lots of good healthy usage), how will they find their way back to
Lucene?

Yonik's proposal (merging development of Solr/Lucene, but keeping all
else separate) would achieve this.

If we do the opposite (Solr -> TLP), how could we possibly achieve
this?

I guess one possibility is to just suck it up and duplicate the code.
Meaning, each project will have to manually merge fixes in from the
other project (so long as there's someone around with the itch to do
so).  Lucene would copy in all of Solr's analysis, and vice-versa (and
likewise other dup'd functionality).  I really dislike this
solution... it will confuse the daylights out of users, its error
proned, it's a waste of dev effort, there will always be little
differences... but maybe it is in fact the lesser evil?

I would much prefer merging Solr/Lucene development...

Mike

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
<chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> Hi Grant,
>
>> On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:20 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Robert,
>>>
>>> I think my proposal (Solr->TLP) is sort of orthogonal to the whole analyzers
>>> issue - I was in favor, at the very least, of having a separate
>>> module/project/whatever that both Solr/Lucene (and whatever project) can
>>> depend on for the shared analyzer code...
>>
>> Not really.  They are intimately linked.
>
> Ummm, how so? Making project A called "Apache Super Analyzers" and then
> making Lucene(-java) and Solr depend on Apache Super Analyzers is separate
> of whether or not Lucene(-java) and Solr are TLPs or not...
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/1/10 9:12 AM, "Robert Muir" <rcmuir@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> this will make the analyzers duplication problem even worse
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) <
>>> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your message. I respect your viewpoint, but I respectfully
>>>> disagree. It just seems (to me at least based on the discussion) like a TLP
>>>> for Solr is the way to go.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/1/10 8:54 AM, "Mark Miller" <markrmiller@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 03/01/2010 10:40 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> That would really be no real world change from how things work today.
>>>> The fact
>>>>>> is, today, Solr already operates essentially as an independent project.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Well if that's the case, then it would lead me to think that it's more
of
>>>> a
>>>>> TLP more than anything else per best practices.
>>>>>
>>>> That depends. It could be argued it should be a top level project or
>>>> that it should be closer to the Lucene project. Some people are arguing
>>>> for both approaches right now. There are two directions we could move in.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The only real difference is that it shares the same PMC with Lucene
now
>>>> and
>>>>>> wouldn't with this change. This would address none of the issues
that
>>>>>> triggered
>>>>>> the idea for a possible merge.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't agree -- you're looking to bring together two communities that
>>>> are
>>>>> "fairly separate" as you put it. The separation likely didn't spring
up
>>>> over
>>>>> night and has been this way for a while (as least to my knowledge). This
>>>> is
>>>>> exactly the type of situation that typically leads to TLP creation from
>>>> what
>>>>> I've seen.
>>>>>
>>>> It also causes negatives between Solr/Lucene that some are looking to
>>>> address. Hence the birth of this proposal. Going TLP with Solr will only
>>>> aggravate those negatives, not help them.
>>>>
>>>> While the communities operate fairly separately at the moment, the
>>>> people in the communities are not so separate. The committer list has
>>>> huge overlap. Many committers on one project but not the other do a lot
>>>> of work on both projects.
>>>>
>>>> There is already a strong link with the personal - merging the
>>>> management of the projects addresses many of the concerns that have
>>>> prompted this discussion. TLP'ing Solr only makes those concerns
>>>> multiply. They would diverge further, and incompatible overlap between
>>>> them would increase.
>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 03/01/2010 10:04 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Grant,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to explore this<   does this imply that the Lucene
>>>> sub-projects will
>>>>>>> go away and Lucene will turn into Lucene-java and maintain its
Apache
>>>> TLP,
>>>>>>> and then you'd have say, solr.apache.org, tika.apache.org,
>>>> mahout.apache.org
>>>>>>> (already started), etc. etc.? If so, that may be the best of
all
>>>> worlds,
>>>>>>> allowing project independence, but also not following the Apache
>>>>>>> "antipattern" as Doug put it...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/1/10 7:28 AM, "Grant Ingersoll"<gsingers@apache.org>
  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, as Doug alluded to, the Board is likely to ask us to
consider
>>>> less
>>>>>>>> subprojects in the future, so we may be consolidating and
spinning off
>>>>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>>>>>>> Senior Computer Scientist
>>>>>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>>>>>>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>>>>>>> Email: Chris.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov
>>>>>>> Phone: +1 (818) 354-8810
>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>>>>>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
>>>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.lucidimagination.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>>>>> Senior Computer Scientist
>>>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>>>>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>>>>> Email: Chris.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov
>>>>> WWW:   http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/<http://sunset.usc.edu/%7Emattmann/>
>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>>>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Mark
>>>>
>>>> http://www.lucidimagination.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>>>> Senior Computer Scientist
>>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>>>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>>>> Email: Chris.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov
>>>> WWW:   http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/<http://sunset.usc.edu/%7Emattmann/>
>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Robert Muir
>>> rcmuir@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>>> Senior Computer Scientist
>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>>> Email: Chris.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov
>>> WWW:   http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
> Senior Computer Scientist
> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
> Email: Chris.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov
> WWW:   http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
>

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