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	 <C75EE02D.8A09%Chris.A.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov>
	 <1e33aedb0912282349y48628cb8q7ddf9e24d4ad1d77@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 06:28:20 -0500
Message-ID: <9ac0c6aa0912290328y3fc01e4eycc6b618d7ab712e7@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spatial] Cartesian "Tiers" nomenclature
From: Michael McCandless <lucene@mikemccandless.com>
To: general@lucene.apache.org
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It's great that there's such a sudden burst of energy to improve
spatial in both Solr and Lucene!

Isn't this concept the same as "trie" (for Lucene's numeric fields),
but in 2D not 1D?

If so, I think "tiles" doesn't convey that they recursively
subdivide.

Also: why does this notion even need naming so badly?  Why does this
concept "leak" out of the abstraction?  Shouldn't this (cartesian
tier, cartesian tier plotter) all be "under the hood"?  I make a
SpatialField, I index it, I can then make SpatialShapeQuery, a
SpatialDistanceSort, etc.?

Ie, "trie" is known within Lucene, but doesn't leak out -- the outside
world knows it as "Numeric*".  Trie is an implementation detail,
inside Lucene.

(NOTE: I only know just enough about spatial to be dangerous...)

Mike

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:49 AM, patrick o'leary <pjaol@pjaol.com> wrote:
> Ah the language of math is the ultimate lingua franca -
> Nice !
>
> When you look at the coordinates entity from KML, ask why are the lat /
> longs reversed to long/ lat?
> Answer because the folks working on the display thought in terms of *disp=
lay
> not GIS*, the point is over Y degrees of longitude and down X degrees of
> latitude.
>
> But again that's not a convention used outside a little part of GeoTools =
or
> KML, GML / GeoRSS are again just the regular lat,long (NS,EW), or project=
ed
> EPSG or other standard projections in =A0OGC 05-011.
> To my knowledge google are the only real pushers of (EW,NS) these days.
>
> So what does this diatribe mean? We're kind of at the bleeding edge of
> defining the standard, hence the difficulty of finding data on it.
> This is one reason why locallucene and localsolr became popular, it solve=
d a
> problem simply.
>
> Doc's about it exist on gissearch.com
> dzone are doing articles on it
> http://java.dzone.com/articles/spatial-search-hibernate?utm_source=3Dfeed=
burner&utm_medium=3Dfeed&utm_campaign=3DFeed%3A+javalobby%2Ffrontpage+%28Ja=
valobby+%2F+Java+Zone%29
>
> Locallucene in google has over 8,000 results
> http://www.google.com/search?q=3Dlocallucene
>
> Localsolr has over 4,000 results
> http://www.google.com/search?q=3Dlocalsolr
>
> I've seen and help with installations all over the place, heck even codeh=
aus
> use it, as do folks on github with geonames db.
> I see named it mathematically & scientifically correct, and =A0gaining en=
ough
> traction and popularity to start becoming part of the standard, not just
> duplicating one.
>
> I can't honestly see how a refactoring is bringing anything positive to
> this, when there isn't a good standard out there yet.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 10:22 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) <
> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>> Hi Patrick,
>>
>> Interesting. It seems like there is a precedent already in the Local Luc=
ene
>> and Local SOLR packages that define "CartesianTier" as lingua franca.
>>
>> Like I said in an earlier email it depends on who you talk to regarding =
the
>> preference of what to call these Tiles/Grids/Tiers, etc., and that seems=
 to
>> be further evidenced by your research.
>>
>> I for one don=B9t really have a preference but precedent matters to me a=
nd if
>> Tiers have been used to date then there should be strong consideration t=
o
>> use that nomenclature and +1 from me.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>> On 12/28/09 9:25 PM, "patrick o'leary" <pjaol@pjaol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > So trying no to drag this out, the most frequent generic term used in =
GIS
>> > software is SRID
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRID
>> >
>> > Again this provides just a basic nomenclature for the high level eleme=
nt,
>> > somewhat the blackbird of objects rather than the defining the magpie
>> (sorry
>> > for the CS 101 reference)
>> >
>> > But it should show that every implementation is unique in some format.
>> > Perhaps as unique as CartesianTier's ( sorry Ted ! )
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 5:26 PM, patrick o'leary <pjaol@pjaol.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hmm, depends, tiles indicate to me a direct correlation between the i=
d
>> and
>> >> a map tile, which will depend upon using the right projection
>> >> with the cartesian plotter
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Grant Ingersoll <gsingers@apache.org
>> >wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Dec 28, 2009, at 4:19 PM, patrick o'leary wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hmm, but when you say grid, to me that's just a bunch of regularly
>> >>> spaced
>> >>>> lines..
>> >>>
>> >>> Yeah, I hear you. =A0I chose spatial tiles for the Solr patch, but
>> spatial
>> >>> grid would work too. =A0Or map tiles/map grids. =A0That anchors it i=
nto the
>> >>> spatial world, since we're calling Lucene's spatial contrib/spatial =
and
>> >>> Solr's Solr Spatial.
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Grant Ingersoll <gsingers@apache.o=
rg
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Dec 28, 2009, at 3:51 PM, patrick o'leary wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> So Grant here's the deal behind the name.
>> >>>>>> Cartesian because it's a simple x.y coordinate system
>> >>>>>> Tier because there are multiple tiers, levels of resolution.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If you look at it closer:
>> >>>>>> - To programmers there's a quadtree implementation
>> >>>>>> - To web users who use maps these are grids / tiles.
>> >>>>>> - To GIS experts this is a form of multi-resolution raster-ing.
>> >>>>>> - To astrophysicists these are tiers.
>> >>>>>> - To the MS folks I've talked to they have quad something or othe=
r.
>> >>>>>> - To math folks Cartesian levels makes sense.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Can't make all the people happy all the time,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Right, but as far as I can tell (and I've only done, say an hour o=
f
>> >>>>> research), I can't find anyone who calls them Cartesian Tiers othe=
r
>> >>> than us.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Personally, I think web users are the largest group (after all,
>> aren't
>> >>> we
>> >>>>> all web users?) out there and therefore will be the most familiar
>> with
>> >>>>> either grid or tile. =A0FWIW, I have tentatively called the Solr
>> >>> FieldType to
>> >>>>> support this "SpatialTileField" as in it represents a tile in the
>> >>> spatial
>> >>>>> sense. =A0I'd be fine with SpatialGridField as well (GridField see=
ms a
>> >>> bit too
>> >>>>> generic).
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>> Senior Computer Scientist
>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>> Email: Chris.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov
>> WWW: =A0 http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/<http://sunset.usc.edu/%7Emattm=
ann/>
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>>
>>
>