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From Marvin Humphrey <mar...@rectangular.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Archive Lucy
Date Sat, 07 Mar 2009 08:54:02 GMT
On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 03:02:22AM +0100, Jukka Zitting wrote:
> > Please give me two to three months to make the next dev release of KinoSearch.
> 
> What will happen then?

The next dev release of KS will present real world implementations of many
designs that have been discussed in Lucene and Lucy forums over the last year.

Some might see that as "progress". ;) 

> When and how is Lucy development going to start?

It *is* actively progressing.  It's just that neither you nor Grant are 
willing to acknowledge that any of the design work I just did (in happy
collaboration with Java Lucene devs) applies to Lucy.

Please go read <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LUCENE-1458> and see if
you can still assert after you read it that no work is being done on Lucy.  I
warn you, it is a long thread. :)

> You mention that in many cases other forums have been better for
> discussing related design issues. What's the benefit of keeping the
> Lucy project alive if there's next to no code or even discussion
> there?

The proposal remains sound, and there is a deep hunger out there for a solid C
IR library similar to Lucene.  The KS-then-Lucy progression is the fastest and
best way to get there.

Things would have gone more smoothly and quickly if Dave Balmain had been able
to contribute more, but even with that setback, we will still reach the
finish.

> I'm sure that everyone here would love to see Lucy become more active.
> How could we help make that happen?

Help Mike McCandless and Jason Rutherglen finish up their work on the designs
we've all been discussing.  This is a multi-way collaboration, and Lucy
benefits when I'm able to study alternatate implementations, just as Java
Lucene benefits from being able to see what other projects have done.

Cross-pollination has worked very well in the past.  The indexing speedups a
while back started with McCandless riffing on the KinoSearch merge model.  (He
followed that up with plenty of interesting innovating on his own.)

> As a wild idea: would there be interest in bringing the KinoSearch
> codebase over to Apache through incubation? 

My main reservation is that I really want to see KS and Lucy play out
sequentially, because I want Lucy to benefit from having seen how the features
now in KS work in the real world.  There's no sane versioning under Perl/CPAN.
You can't move from Lucy version 1 to Lucy version 2 without screwing over
your users, and therefore I don't want to merge the two projects into one
namespace.  If we did that, the unified project has to stay as an "alpha" for
that much longer, and it never really gets the benefit of seeing how a
real-world release goes.

If, then, we're proceeding sequentially as I recommend, I don't see how
putting KS through incubation does anything but slow us down.  All we're doing
is adding extra hoops to jump through.  It might be politically expedient, but
the engineer in me rebels at the waste, as does the loyal employee.

>From my perspective, what we have is an optics problem.  I'm working full
time, and I've been plenty active in the Lucene forums, but you and Grant only
see a big fat zero.  :(

Marvin Humphrey


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