Mailing-List: contact dev-help@lucene.apache.org; run by ezmlm
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: dev@lucene.apache.org
Received-SPF: pass (nike.apache.org: domain of karl.wright@nokia.com
 designates 192.100.122.230 as permitted sender)
From: <karl.wright@nokia.com>
To: <dev@lucene.apache.org>
Subject: RE: discussion about release frequency.
Thread-Topic: discussion about release frequency.
Thread-Index: 
 ActQTtqv0DhDXdj4SSiqjRJLlgtzZAGc5LCAAAIaFQAAAgugAAAZymgAAAJ2BgAAAJ9xAAACwIcAAABRXAAAAVAsAAAAgJmAAAA1pYAAAGr9gAAAUrQAAAECPIAAAMmdAABSNQ+AAAFH1IAAAMLCAAAEwX2g
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 13:44:07 +0000
Message-ID: 
 <E137CC9DAAE88E489BA78565991902F301D203@008-AM1MPN1-003.mgdnok.nokia.com>
References: <AANLkTinx18uNyGRq5pF90OkU+H2jFT2WC1DYagiGWrqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C8BA6C96.1ECE3%Chris.A.Mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov>
 <AANLkTinQWhSnxWbzjBMem78qhVJpXz9K7Frg1yh5mxVe@mail.gmail.com>
 <AANLkTi=E2vEGVm5dF1EbmFiitTJd=gWOW+Basp3yRm8U@mail.gmail.com>
 <7A5D88B2-EC13-43E3-A175-7A8C550FC9F8@apache.org>
 <4C975ADB.2080607@gmail.com>
 <479F4D6D-3EE7-456B-8342-8E71D050EE4A@apache.org>
In-Reply-To: <479F4D6D-3EE7-456B-8342-8E71D050EE4A@apache.org>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0

My 2c...

Maven is pretty much incompatible with some of the standards of release eng=
ineering, namely repeatable builds.  It tries to do pretty much the same jo=
b that apt does under debian and ubuntu and is therefore not terribly usefu=
l in that environment.  All the mavenistas I've talked to have no good answ=
er to that, except perhaps for setting up local repositories to do what you=
 need.

Another approach that might be worth considering is using ivy instead of ma=
ven per se.  There is a lot more control that way, and most of the engineer=
s familiar with both approaches prefer ivy, if it's an option.

Karl


-----Original Message-----
From: ext Grant Ingersoll [mailto:gsingers@apache.org]=20
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 9:22 AM
To: dev@lucene.apache.org
Subject: Re: discussion about release frequency.


On Sep 20, 2010, at 9:00 AM, Mark Miller wrote:

>=20
>> (BTW, I love the "Maven is Magic" (and really any "It's magic, therefore=
 I don't like it") reasoning for not liking it, whereby everyone complains =
that b/c Maven hides a bunch of details from you (i.e. it's "magic"), there=
fore you don't like it.  At the same time, I'm sure said person doesn't und=
erstand every last detail of, oh, I don't know: the CPU, RAM, the Compiler,=
 the JDK, etc. and yet they have no problem using that.  In other words, we=
 deal with abstractions all the time.  It's fine if you don't get the abstr=
action or don't personally find it useful, but that doesn't make the abstra=
ction bad.)=20
>>=20
>> -Grant
>=20
> Maven is not bad because it's magic - magic is frigging great - I want
> my software to be magic - it's bad because every 5 line program from
> some open source code/project that I have tried to build with it has
> gone on an absurd downloading spree that takes forever because it's
> getting many tiny files. This downloading spree never corresponds to the
> size of the code base I am working with, and always manages to surprise
> by the amount of time it can slurp up.

Agreed, but over time, it is lessened by the fact that you already have mos=
t common files/jars and furthermore, you only have one copy of them instead=
 of one under every source tree.  I think, over time, you actually end up d=
ownloading less than with other approaches and that even includes the downl=
oads one gets when Maven upgrades itself. =20

I do, agree, though, that Maven makes you drink the Kool-aid and it doesn't=
 play well with other conventions (although it isn't horrible when it comes=
 to Ant, either).  There are plenty of days I hate Maven for what it assume=
s, but there are also many days when I love the fact that the POM describes=
 my project in one clear, fairly concise, "validatable" way.

>=20
> I
> still think Maven should be a downstream issue.

I don't see how it can be.  You have to be a committer to push it to the AS=
F repository for syndication on iBiblio, etc.  That being said, we really a=
ren't that far from a process that we can have confidence in.

-Grant
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@lucene.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@lucene.apache.org


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@lucene.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@lucene.apache.org