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From "Robert Engels" <reng...@ix.netcom.com>
Subject RE: Lucene vs. Ruby/Odeum
Date Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:27:33 GMT
Sorry if you thought my comment was destructive or counter-productive.

I read all of Zed's posts on the subject and I feel he certainly presents a
strong anti-Java, if not anti-Lucene bias - maybe just pro Ruby. The funny
thing is that I am not a Java zealot by any means, and I am a firm believer
in the "right tool for the job", but Zed's analysis is similar to testing
screwdrivers, and then determining that one hammers nails way better than
another.

If you do not even adhere to the principle designer's "guidelines to proper
usage", your tests are meaningless. It's akin to using a new flat screen
monitor and claiming "boy, it has a fuzzy picture", because you didn't
follow the instructions that said "remove protective film before using".

I just get frustrated when people use their "advanced methods" to prove
their point (even though the statistics are very basic), but avoid the use
of common sense. The adage "garbage in, garbage out" will always hold true.

Zed is using a very constrained test - which is probably very UNCOMMON in
the real world of server based systems, to attempt to discern the relative
performance characteristics of Lucene/Java/Ruby/etc. The tests may be
applicable in his poorly designed environment, but he presents his limited
finding as "gospel", and that it should hold true in all cases. I quote...
"For the people who have no clue (also known as "Executives") here's the
information you need to tell all your employees they need to adopt the
latest and greatest thing without ever having to understand anything you
read. Cheaper than an article in CIO magazine and even has big words like
"standard deviation"." and then goes on to present his "statistically
correct" performance numbers.

As an aside, in my performance testing of Lucene using JProfiler, it seems
to me that the only way to improve Lucene's performance greatly can come
from 2 areas

1. optimizing the JVM array/looping/JIT constructs/capabilities to avoid
bounds checking/improve performance
2. improve function call overhead

Other than that, other changes will require a significant change in the code
structure (manually unrolling loops), at the sacrifice of
readability/maintainability.

R


-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:erik@ehatchersolutions.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:46 PM
To: java-dev@lucene.apache.org
Subject: Re: Lucene vs. Ruby/Odeum


Robert - Please tone it down.  Zed is aware of this thread and
perhaps even seeing this message.  There is no need to resort to such
verbiage - Zed and I have been communicating and he is a fan of
Lucene and has proven in his last entry that Lucene is faster than
Ruby/Odeum even with the massive memory issue he notes (and has been
properly informed of what he's doing incorrectly in that situation).

Speaking for myself - I want the most accurate, flexible, and fastest
search system possible regardless of platform or language.  Certainly
I want it to be Lucene, but I welcome competition and those that go
to the extensive effort of collecting data and making studies such as
Zed has.  The Lucene community can help keep this type of competition
healthy and positive by educating folks in proper Lucene usage and
responding in kind regardless of the mistakes, attitudes, or flame-
bait we may encounter.

     Erik

On Jun 1, 2005, at 7:48 PM, Robert Engels wrote:

> I think I am going to start a new Blog - "Zed's an Idiot".
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:erik@ehatchersolutions.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:39 PM
> To: java-dev@lucene.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Lucene vs. Ruby/Odeum
>
>
>
> On Jun 1, 2005, at 6:07 PM, Daniel Naber wrote:
>
>
>> On Tuesday 17 May 2005 04:41, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> http://www.zedshaw.com/projects/ruby_odeum/performance.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Here's a follow up:
>> http://www.zedshaw.com/projects/ruby_odeum/odeum_lucene_part2.html
>>
>> Now the claim is that Lucene is faster than Ruby/Odeum but it
>> takes 36
>> times more memory. However, I cannot find any information on how
>> exactly
>> Lucene was started. It's no surprise that Java requires much memory
>> and
>> doesn't clean up if it never comes close to the limit set with -Xmx.
>>
>
> I went around several times in e-mail with Zed, the author of this
> comparison after his follow-up.  His paraphrasing of me in there is
> only partially sort of what I said to him.  He's instantiating an
> IndexSearcher inside a tight loop which I told him was a very bad
> thing to do with Lucene and that his loops are so tight that garbage
> collection isn't getting a chance to kick in.  He doesn't currently
> believe some of this from me, and also feels that adjusting the code
> to make Lucene happy is being unfair.
>
> I wish the RubyLucene folks would hurry up and get a port over there
> so that we could compare against Ruby/Odeum "fairly" :)
>
>      Erik
>
>
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