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From Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Web Issues, Logging Levels, and GA
Date Sat, 18 Jan 2014 22:55:07 GMT
Ah, I see where QUITE is now for you. I can imagine QUIET as a kind of
level, but not LIFECYCLE. For me, LIFECYCLE is orthogonal, different
objects have different life cycles of different lengths, it's just not a
level.

Gary


On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:

> For a more constructive answer, I would like to point out that Gradle adds
> two logging levels: LIFECYCLE and QUIET. Their hierarchy is: ERROR > QUIET
> > WARNING > LIFECYCLE > INFO > DEBUG. I'm not sure about their underlying
> implementation, but it's somewhat useful.
>
>
> On 18 January 2014 16:12, Nicholas Williams <nicholas@nicholaswilliams.net
> > wrote:
>
>> I prefer to avoid markers whenever possible. Unlike levels, markers
>> require some amount of configuration to get them to log/not log when
>> desired. They don't "just work."
>>
>> N
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone from LAX baggage claim, so please forgive brief
>> replies and frequent typos
>>
>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 14:01, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Markers all around! No logging levels, just allow markers to have
>> ordinals or bit-flags to allow more flexible filtering.
>>
>> Sorry, nothing useful to add beyond wild speculations.
>>
>>
>> On 18 January 2014 15:15, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, here is how I would prefer it.  Let’s see if it makes sense to
>>> anyone else.
>>>
>>> FATAL - Hopefully, almost never logged because the system is crashing.
>>> ERROR - Something affecting the usability of the system occurred.
>>> WARN - Something not nice, but probably recoverable occurred. May lead
>>> to errors later.
>>> INFO - Something of general interest, but not necessarily significant.
>>> DIAG or DIAGNOSTIC - Events that can be used by operations or users to
>>> diagnose problems in the system.
>>> DEBUG - Used by developers for internal debugging.
>>> VERBOSE - Used to log minute details of the system.  As its dictionary
>>> definition implies this is extremely chatty.
>>> TRACE - Adds tracing of method entry and exit, possibly object creation
>>> and initialization.
>>>
>>> I believe these should be enough for anybody.  I still think CONFIG is a
>>> Marker at the INFO level. The advantage of being a Marker is that it can be
>>> enabled regardless of its level and enabling it doesn’t imply enabling
>>> other levels.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 1:03 PM, Gary Gregory <garydgregory@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> STEP?  No clue what that means.
>>>>
>>>> Gary, if you want to implement VERBOSE between INFO and DEBUG I’m OK
>>>> with that, but what will that map to in SLF4J, etc.  DEBUG?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds OK, I can see it as debug data, but for users, instead of
>>> developers.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>>
>>>> And yes, something on the web site should document our recommended
>>>> usage for levels and markers.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Gary Gregory <garydgregory@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ah, my view of VERBOSE is that it is _more_ information, hence INFO <
>>>> VERBOSE < DEBUG; while it sounds like Ralphs sees it as more DEBUG data.
>>>>
>>>>  For me DEBUG data is going to be already verbose, even more than
>>>> 'verbose'.
>>>>
>>>> What is interesting (to me) is that DEBUG is often misused based on
>>>> this basic mix: debug messages can be for users *and/or* for developers,
>>>> there is no distinction in the audience.
>>>>
>>>> For example, as a user, I want to get data to help me debug my
>>>> configuration and my process. As a developer, I want to debug the code.
>>>> These can be two very different set of data.
>>>>
>>>> But we do not have DEBUG_USER and DEBUG_DEV levels. I would see INFO
>>>> next to VERBOSE as useful to users. Then DEBUG and TRACE useful for
>>>> developers. Each app can have its convention of course, but it would be
>>>> nice to have the distinction available through levels for developers to use.
>>>>
>>>> I see TRACE as method entry and exit type of logging, *very* *low*
>>>> level stuff.
>>>>
>>>> We could also have both (ducking for projectiles):
>>>>
>>>> INFO
>>>> VERBOSE
>>>> DEBUG
>>>> STEP
>>>> TRACE
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Ralph Goers <
>>>> ralph.goers@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Oops. I just noticed you proposed that VERBOSE be between INFO and
>>>>> DEBUG. Now that I don’t understand. My experience is that VERBOSE is
>>>>> usually more detailed than debug messages, not less.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Ralph Goers <Ralph.Goers@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand the need for CONFIG.  However it isn’t clear to me
>>>>> whether it belongs between INFO and WARN or DEBUG and INFO.  That is
>>>>> because it typically would be used to log configuration during startup.
>>>>>  That doesn’t necessarily imply that you would then want to see all
INFO
>>>>> messages as well.  Due to that, it would make more sense to me to make
a
>>>>> CONFIG marker.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t really understand the point of FINE or FINER.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, VERBOSE does make a bit more sense, but I’m
>>>>> struggling with how that is any different than TRACE.  I guess the idea
is
>>>>> that TRACE is for control flow (entry, exit) and VERBOSE is for more
>>>>> detailed debug messages?  I suppose I can go along with that argument,
but
>>>>> again one could just as easily create a VERBOSE marker and attach it
to
>>>>> either TRACE or DEBUG.  I guess I wouldn’t object if VERBOSE was added
as a
>>>>> Level but I’m not really convinced it is necessary either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Remko Popma <remko.popma@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I've always liked Ralph's argument that Markers give users much more
>>>>> flexibility than any predefined Levels.
>>>>> I would prefer to stick to the log4j/slf4j level names.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Gary Gregory <garydgregory@gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting, I have been wanting a VERBOSE level better INFO and
>>>>>> DEBUG.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See
>>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/logging-log4j-dev/201310.mbox/%3CCACZkXPxNwYbn__CbXUqFhC7e3Q=kee94j+UDhe8+6jiuBCZEeg@mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You'll have to dig a little in that ref to find my proposal, sorry
>>>>>> I'm on my phone ATM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It sounds like we see logging configuration messages differently
>>>>>> though. I do not like the name CONFIG because it does not sound like
a
>>>>>> level to me. Otoh, many command lines have a verbose AND a debug
switch. So
>>>>>> it makes sense to me too have corresponding levels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>>> From: Nick Williams
>>>>>> Date:01/17/2014 23:50 (GMT-05:00)
>>>>>> To: Log4J Developers List
>>>>>> Subject: Web Issues, Logging Levels, and GA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wanted to update y'all. As you know, I've been very absent lately
due
>>>>>> to the book consuming every minute of my free time. I know I haven't
been
>>>>>> contributing my due, and for that please accept my sincerest apologies.
The
>>>>>> book is finally done (goes on sale next month!) and I can get back
to
>>>>>> regular life. I'm going to be out of town for the next week on a
>>>>>> much-needed vacation with very limited access to email. I'll be back
the
>>>>>> weekend of January 25-26, and that weekend I will be spending almost
the
>>>>>> entire time finally dealing with the 8-10 web application-related
bugs.
>>>>>> After that, I don't see any encumbrances to releasing 2.0.0.GA<http://2.0.0.ga/>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Except...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Logging Levels. We kinda-sorta talked about this a few months ago,
>>>>>> and a few months before that, and a few months before that, but we
never
>>>>>> actually DID anything about it. It's clear by now that my "extendable
enum"
>>>>>> proposal (that would be a drop-in replacement for and binary compatible
>>>>>> with the current Level enum) is not going to be accepted. Absent
any other
>>>>>> proposals, I suggest we add the following new levels before GA:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CONFIG - Between INFO and WARN, mapped to INFO for bridges to other
>>>>>> frameworks that don't have an equivalent level
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FINE - Between DEBUG and TRACE, mapped to TRACE for bridges to other
>>>>>> frameworks that don't have an equivalent level
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll let y'all chat about that over the next week. ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Be back soon,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@logging.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> E-Mail: garydgregory@gmail.com | ggregory@apache.org
>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/>
>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/>
>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/>
>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/
>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> E-Mail: garydgregory@gmail.com | ggregory@apache.org
>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/>
>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/>
>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/>
>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/
>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>



-- 
E-Mail: garydgregory@gmail.com | ggregory@apache.org
Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/>
JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/>
Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/>
Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
Home: http://garygregory.com/
Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory

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