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Subject: RE: [COMPATIBILITY] Internal logging
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:12:59 -0800
Message-ID: <E45E5CC99D174847A32B0970834F177C38A679@csicorp6.pdxcsi.com>
Thread-Topic: [COMPATIBILITY] Internal logging
Thread-Index: AcYQkapK18Hqq8fwTZyJN2CdejnAKgAGM77N
From: "Scott Deboy" <sdeboy@comotivsystems.com>
To: "Log4J Developers List" <log4j-dev@logging.apache.org>

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I don't have a misunderstanding of the issues involved, I'm just =
wondering how common it is for our users to:

1. Use root logger to configure logging verbosity
2. Not want log4j output in those logs

If so, they'd be -forced- to modify their log4j config file unless we =
provided some reasonable mechanism for enabling internal logging. =20

Scott


-----Original Message-----
From: Jacob Kjome [mailto:hoju@visi.com]
Sent: Tue 1/3/2006 10:14 AM
To: Log4J Developers List
Subject: Re: [COMPATIBILITY] Internal logging
=20
Quoting Curt Arnold <carnold@apache.org>:

>
> On Jan 3, 2006, at 7:30 AM, Scott Deboy wrote:
>
> > Many people use root loggers, and now log4j's logging will be
> > included in their application.
> >
> > Some folks will see this as an incompatibility - if they expected
> > to be able to drop in 1.3 and have their log output look identical
> > to how 1.2 behaved.
> >
> > It will be interesting to hear from users whether this is an issue.
> >
> > At a minimum, we need to provide a very clear example of how to
> > keep log4j internal logging output out of their logs.
> >
> > We could consider programmatically defaulting log4j output off
> > unless log4j.debug=3Dtrue (if we choose to continue to support
> > log4j.debug, which we probably should).
> >
> > Scott
>
>
> There have been pretty frequent complaints on the mailing list,
> particularly about inconsequential internal INFO messages showing up
> in the application log.  The log4j 1.2 unit tests also depend on the
> output being free of log4j internal logging.
>

There has been some confusion about this, but keep in mind that most of =
it came
from stuff that you couldn't turn off at all.  This was logging that was =
coming
from LogLog whether you had log4j.debug=3Dfalse or legitimately turned =
it off in
the logging configuration.  The issue was in alphas up to, and =
including,
Log4j-1.3alpha6.  So, lets not confuse the two issues here and blow this
problem out of proportion.  These questions have dropped off =
significantly
since alpha7.

Keep in mind that if you set the root logger to be DEBUG or INFO, you =
are going
to get bombarded with messages from every conceivable package using =
Log4j
directly or via commons-logging.  If one is inclined to do this, I think =
one is
 probably also inclined to turn off packages such as Jakarta-commons =
components
and whatnot.  With Log4j-1.3, the only surprise is that now they get =
Log4j
internal logging being controled from their configuration, which didn't =
happen
before (and this is a good thing, BTW).  But it's hardly different from =
any
other package.  The quick fix is, obviously, to set the root logger to =
nothing
lower than WARN and to specifically turn on other loggers rather than =
have them
on by default.  That's a basic Log4j education issue.

> My thinking is that we should probably move the internal logging into
> another branch of the hierarchy (that is loggers starting with
> "internal." or "log4j.", not "org.apache.log4j") and set the default
> threshold for the internal loggers to ERROR in the Hierarchy
> initialization.
>

That's extra documentation and would surprise the heck out of me if it =
were
implemented.  Why should Log4j's own logging be treated specially?  I =
expect
that if I configure org.apache.commons to log to DEBUG, that I get debug
messages out of Jakarta-commons components.  Likewise, I expect that if =
I
configure org.apache.log4j to log to DEBUG, that I get debug messages =
out of
the Log4j component.  This behavior is "least surprising" to me.  Any =
other
behavior is something I would forget and have to look up in the docs to
determine what special case we applied for Log4j internal logging.  =
Please
don't change the way it is currently.

-1 to changing the current behavior of internal logging.  The onus to do =
so
seems to be based on a misunderstanding of the issues involved.

Jake


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