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From Jacob Kjome <h...@visi.com>
Subject Re: What to do about commons-logging (if anything)
Date Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:12:13 GMT
Hello Yoav,

The real question is why, when Apache already has the preeminent
logging package out there (Log4j), do they create yet another package for
logging.  Why don't other Apache projects use Log4j directly?  While
Apache is at it, why don't we create a wrapper around Tomcat to hide
all the details about the Tomcat container.  It will be called
commons-container and will not only wrap Tomcat, but WebLogic,
WebSphere, etc.  It will be great!....yeah, right.

The commons-logging project is only valid if Log4j does not exist.
Apache is not about making everything inter-operate generically.  It
is about making packages/apps that are useful to people.  Log4j is,
inarguably, useful to people.  Why should Apache care that other
logging packages exist?  People either use Apache's product or some
other one.  What's this "well, you can use any logging api if you use
commons-logging".  That's a fallacy.  You are using the
commons-logging api and are limited by what it provides.  It, in turn,
is limited by the lowest common denominator logging package it
suppoprts.  What benefit does this gain anyone?  Log4j, JDK1.4, and other logging
packages just sit there providing their base-minimum functionality
through commons-logging while commons-logging provides the user with
lots of bugs and headaches.  Sorry, but I don't get it???

commons-logging developers, feel free to flame me and tell me how
wrong I am.  Maybe you will open my eyes?  Until then, my opinion is
that commons-logging should just stop existing and quit bugging-up
apps like Struts and others that get poisoned by commons-logging.  I
cringe when I see an app I am interested in using it.  The
questions about it on the tomcat-user list are nearing that of the
Apache-Tomcat jk connectors...well, that's stretching it a bit, but it
helps to make the point.

[ducking for cover]


Thursday, February 20, 2003, 8:40:22 AM, you wrote:

SY> Hi,
SY> I guess the subject pretty much says it all.

SY> I've been seeing a ton of issues people have when trying to use
SY> commons-logging.  Some have to do with tomcat and complicated
SY> classloader issues, some have to do with apps that just use
SY> commons-logging (e.g. struts) and so users don't have the option to NOT
SY> use commons-logging.

SY> My question is, can we, should we, do anything to make log4j and
SY> commons-logging play better with each other?  Or it is not log4j's job?
SY> Or is there nothing log4j can do about it?

SY> Personally, having used log4j for a long time and loving it, and having
SY> tried commons-logging a couple of times, I like using log4j by itself.
SY> I don't think the added complexity (configuration, deployment) of
SY> commons-logging is worth the effort at all.

SY> What do people think?

SY> Yoav Shapira
SY> Millennium ChemInformatics

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Best regards,
 Jacob                            mailto:hoju@visi.com

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