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From Ross Gardler <>
Subject Re: [DRAFT] Board Report June 2011
Date Thu, 23 Jun 2011 13:45:16 GMT
On 23 June 2011 14:32, Christian Grobmeier <> wrote:
> Ross,
>> At no point did I say people can't use labs. The words you quote below are taken
entirely out of context in this mail. They were in response to a very specific issue, not
a general state t and certainly not a rule.
> I am very sorry if I got you wrong.
> Quotes are always out of a context - therefore I have attached the
> whole discussion to it.
> Looking at the bylaws:
> "Several of these projects provide places for their committers to work
> on innovative ideas (these are normally called sandboxes or
> whiteboards). Unfortunately, such efforts are constrained by the
> project bylaws, which can limit the degree of innovation that such
> efforts can exhibit.
> Apache Labs are the place where ASF committers can work on innovative,
> blue-sky and off-the-wall ideas, without having to worry about fitting
> in an existing project bylaw or building a community around it, but
> unlike other external venues that can offer similar hosting services,
> as a place where fellow committers can offer suggestions and help."
> For me it reads exactly as the quote. Work on innovating things or go
> to a sandbox. If don't have karma for the sandbox go to apache-extras.
> As this is the phrasing in the bylaws, I would consider this as a rule.

That is completely different to what you said earlier. Firstly what
you are quoting here is not what you quoted before (see below).
Secondly, you claimed that I had asserted that "You cannot go to labs
if there is a projects sandbox, even when you have Karma." (again, see
below). neither what I have said in the quoted thread below or in the
byelaws you quote above says this is the case.

The rules are no releases and no non-asf committers. That's it.

What I have said, in response to a specific question about a specific
example use case, is that (in that specific case) the project is not
suited to labs ad should be in the porject sandbox. The reason was
that you wanted to make releases and work with non-ASF committers. I
stand by that assertion since it breaks both the rules Labs currently
has. This statement cannot then be taken to apply to all situations,
including ones that don't want to make releases or engage with non-asf

> Please correct me - once again :-) - if I am wrong.
> Thanks for your patience! As long as you don't ask me to shut up I
> will continue to try to understand (and discuss).

I think this is a very healthy conversation. Some people feel that
Labs needs to change, personally I don't think it needs to change but
I do think we can use it better. Figuring out whether change is needed
or not is the first step to using it better.


> Cheers,
> Christian
>> Ross
>> Sent from my mobile device (so please excuse typos)
>> On 22 Jun 2011, at 15:29, Christian Grobmeier <> wrote:
>>>>> Going quiet is the one thing, going dormant the other. With Github
>>>>> around, we should see if there is really a need for such places like
>>>>> Labs.
>>>> Why?  In other words, what's driving you on this point?  Labs
>>>> admittedly has a fairly narrow range of useful, a small niche.  There
>>>> are clearly several folk who see value in that niche.
>>> Yes. Me too.
>>>>  You don't.
>>> That wrong, I like Labs. I just want it to change so it is more useful
>>> (at least what I think useful means - others have other opinions)
>>>>  Why is that a problem exactly?
>>> Please read the related discussion on the mailinglist.
>>> The original question was, "how to revive labs" to which I responded
>>> to. In my opinion Labs should a little bit. Otherwise things like
>>> github or apache-extras are more useful. Or what exactly are the
>>> reasons why you should go to labs?
>>>>>> The goal of labs is not to become successful, that you only become
when you
>>>>>> build a community around yourself. Instead, the goal of labs is a
place to
>>>>>> try stuff out, with the full understanding that you might not be
>>>>>> It's a place to start something.
>>>>> Yeah, but if you do something related to a ASF project you will need
>>>>> to go to the projects Sandbox.
>>>> Unless you're experimenting around a project on which you haven't commit
>>> And this is exactly my problem because it is wrong what you said here.
>>> You cannot go to labs if there is a projects sandbox, even when you
>>> have Karma. It has been explained to me to go to apache-extras
>>> instead.
>>> See:
>>> "Labs is a place for experimentation, not a place for developing software
>>> that is intended to be used."
>>> With this restriction I only see a few projects who might fit to labs.
>>> To go into labs, you need to be Apache Committer, have no interest in
>>> doing releases or build a community and experiment on things which are
>>> not intended to use or focused by another project.
>>> Labs 2 should sound like: be an Apache Committer and have no interest
>>> in community building.
>>> There was a long discussion around this already. I kindly refer you to
>>> spot the mailinglist, if you haven't done so.
>>> Cheers
>>> Christian
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Ross Gardler <>
Programme Leader (Open Development)

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