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From "Jamie G." <jamie.goody...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Karaf target audience and release granularity
Date Thu, 16 Aug 2018 08:50:22 GMT
I like the phrase "Product Project", perhaps we should add that to
Karaf's description ;)
On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 6:18 AM Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb@nanthrax.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Toni,
>
> I know a fairly large set of users that use Karaf without knowing OSGi.
>
> That's why it's a polymorphic container: some use spring, some use OSGi,
> some use blueprint, some use directly war, etc. There are several facet
> of using Karaf.
>
> About the distribution, to be honest, I only know users of standard
> distribution: either directly Karaf vanilla and then installing features
> and their applications, or creating their own custom distribution
> starting from the standard one. They don't necessary use the enterprise
> features, it's more the standard distribution + their own features.
>
> One of the key part of Karaf is use friendly. That's the difference
> starting from the framework. When you start from felix framework, it's
> up to you to construct all: logging management, hot deployment, ...
> Starting from Karaf it's a turnkey solution, having all user facing aspects.
> Karaf container and all its subprojects are really focused on user.
>
> Look at Decanter: it's tremendous simple solution but it does the job
> and users just use it.
>
> Karaf is a "product project", it's not a SDK. It's a multi-purpose
> runtime, powered by OSGi, but OSGi is not necessary the user facing model.
>
> That's why, as a "product project", I think it makes sense to have
> regular release pace.
>
> Regards
> JB
>
> On 16/08/2018 10:09, Toni Menzel wrote:
> > As mentioned, here are some more thoughts on Karaf audience/usage.
> >
> > Do you know how Karaf users consume/use Karaf? This is important to get a
> > good release cycle and granularity. (as teased by JB on this list recently).
> >
> > Why i am mentioning that? Well,i always felt that Karaf (the container) is
> > a rather large thing with all its feature repos coming with it. I think
> > thats why Karaf releases where coming rather slow in the past. (correct or
> > not?)
> >
> > *1. Karaf as an opinionated felix distro*
> >
> > This "batteries" included feature is (was?) a core selling point of Karaf
> > but is this really how people use it?
> > I know at least two larger customers who are baking their own Karaf
> > distribution anyway based on the minimal profile.
> >
> > So i am asking, wouldn't it make sense to release the "base" runtime (say
> > Felix+Karaf infrastructure like pax-url, feature system, configuration
> > system) independently? Similar to what you get with Karaf minimal.
> >
> > Depending on how Karaf is used in the real world (do you know?), here are
> > some radical thoughts on my/our personal usage:
> >
> >    - Karaf Minimal becomes "Karaf Runtime" because its base unit you can
> >    put everything on top (even at runtime).
> >    - Karaf Standard/Enterprise becomes the "Karaf SDK" since has the
> >    kitchen-sink nature that is great when you want to tinker with
> >    Spring,Hibernate etc.
> >
> > Also, wouldn't it make sense to release the maven-plugin independently?
> >
> > Those changes might seem of no importance to Karaf insiders (because you
> > get all of that already when building your own distro) but at least I only
> > found Karaf reasonable for a lot of usecases until i found out how to
> > really only get the "runtime" part. Now i can say that for me Karaf is an
> > opinionated felix  distro (yes.. not only that but you get the point).
> >
> > *2. Karaf as polymorphic container*
> >
> > On the website Karaf is marketed as "Karaf can host any kind of
> > applications: OSGi, Spring, WAR, and much more". Is that how people really
> > use it? I mean.. are Spring (Boot..) people happy living inside Karaf?
> > Every OSGi-savvy person recommends going DS, staying with OSGi spec
> > standards and avoid War. - pun intended.
> > Yeah, its great for demos but is it worth the effort? - also to keep this
> > "working". And - from experience - i can tell that its also not a
> > recommendable migration path. It sounds great but Hibernate and friends are
> > actually quite hostile to your OSGi framework instance introducing a lot
> > more complexity into your system. And if even OSGi-savvy people have
> > problems troubleshooting such cases, how should a team of beginners do that?
> >
> > *3. Karaf as a better solution for Microservices*
> >
> > Guess i save this for another post, too easy to turn this into a rant. Let
> > me just say: i think Karaf is one of the few answers to the pervasive
> > Microservice/Spring Boot ecosystem. But it is not obvious and people stay
> > away from it because. Again, this COULD go very long, but it is not the
> > right place.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > * What is Developer Ergonomics <https://medium.com/rebaze>**? *
> >
> >
> >
> > *www.rebaze.de <http://www.rebaze.de/> | www.rebaze.com
> > <http://www.rebaze.com/> | @rebazeio <https://twitter.com/rebazeio>*
> >
>
> --
> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
> jbonofre@apache.org
> http://blog.nanthrax.net
> Talend - http://www.talend.com

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