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From Christian Schneider <ch...@die-schneider.net>
Subject Re: Thoughts about Karaf profiles / releases / growing number of dependencies (Re: AW: AW: Problem when starting camel-cxf in karaf)
Date Fri, 04 Feb 2011 07:11:46 GMT

Am 04.02.2011 00:53, schrieb David Jencks:
> It seems to me that some of these ideas are not infinitely extensible.  If everyone and
their dog set up their projects to generate a karaf feature/kar we won't be able to track
all of them.  This may not be a problem for a long time though :-)
> SImilarly I'm not sure what you mean by "all installable features".  A kar file gives
you the option of installing any number of bundles and config info and features from a single
file.  These are now easy to create with the feature-maven-plugin.  Does this seem sufficiently
> thanks
> david jencks

Hi David,

What I meant with all installable feature lists. Is that we provide a 
list of possible features.xml url. Ideally without the version number. 
Something like:

So this list could be that base for a command line extension that allows 
to browse through the lists and versions. So with the list I provided 
you could do:
 > features:possibleurl

 > featurelist:possibleurl camel
camel 2.5.0
camel 2.6.0

 >features:addurl camel 2.5.0
 >features:addurl activemq 5.4.2
 >features:addurl karaf 2.1.3

mvn:org.apache.karaf/apache-karaf/2.1.3/xml/features    valid
mvn:org.apache.camel.karaf/apache-camel/2.6.0/xml/features    valid
mvn:org.apache.activemq/activemq-karaf/5.4.2/xml/features    valid

This would download all features from all the features.xml files above 
into either one repository e.g. contrib or into one repository for each 
of the files. So after this command people could go offline and
later install and uninstall all features they want without internet 
connection. This part is very important as many companies do not allow 
internet access inside their networks. Still the admins will want to be 
flexible enough
to install and uninstall features.

So the idea about this would be that people don´t have to remember the 
mvn urls of all the features.xml files out there. Of course it won´t be 
possible to track all of them but I think it would be enough
to have the important ones. By not adding the version to the list karaf 
could be flexible enough to find e.g. camel 2.7.0 as soon as it is released.

Best regards


>> Best regards
>> Christian
>> -- 
>> ----
>> http://www.liquid-reality.de
>> Am 04.02.2011 00:07, schrieb Guillaume Nodet:
>>> Yeah, the problem is that Karaf itself isn't a container for Camel or
>>> CXF and we have some users that just want to plain JRE without any
>>> tweaks for running SAAJ because they don't care.
>>> ServiceMix on the other hand is dedicated to host such applications,
>>> so that's why the default config works better.
>>> I'm ok with the idea of profiles in karaf, but we need to make sure we
>>> don't end up with having to include and depend on all apache projects,
>>> as Karaf itself has imho no purpose of becoming a default distribution
>>> of CXF, Camel, ActiveMQ, Directory, etc...
>>> I think each project could easily provide a karaf features so that
>>> they would easily be deployed in a bare Karaf, but at some point, it
>>> does not really scale nor make sense to put everything back into
>>> Karaf.
>>> Tweaking the system properties is sometimes needed depending on what
>>> you need to deploy, because OSGi is lacking on certain areas (or
>>> because the JVM isn't really modular, depending on how you see
>>> things).  Some people are happy with using the JAXB implementation
>>> from the JVM without being able to change it easily, some people may
>>> want to be able to deploy those as OSGi bundles.  Karaf can't do both
>>> at the same time.
>>> Another point, is that the amount of third party dependencies is
>>> becoming increasingly important in Karaf, and that's really becoming a
>>> problem for simply releasing Karaf in an efficient manner.
>>> So I'm tempted to say that we should push back on those projects and
>>> have them provide karaf features, rather than having karaf providing
>>> features for those.  I'm mostly thinking here about pax-web and the
>>> war support (which is really cool, no doubt on that) and aries and
>>> support for things we don't embed by default (jpa, etc..).
>>> I certainly don't have a good answer yet, but I just want to make sure
>>> everyone is aware of the potential problem.
>>> If we keep adding dependencies, our release cycles will necessarily be
>>> longer and longer ....  For example camel has a release cycle of one
>>> minor version every few months, ServiceMix even less, while CXF has
>>> much less external dependencies and manage to keep a high frequency of
>>> releases.  2.2 could have been shipped early december, but we were
>>> waiting for aries.  Now aries has been released, but we still have
>>> some snapshots dependencies on some felix or ops4j components.  And
>>> we've added stuff that's not completely stabilized.
>>> Once again, I'm just trying to state facts so that everybody
>>> understand the situation.  I'm personnaly not really happy that the
>>> 2.2 release is planned since 2 months but still can't get out and I
>>> think it clearly means that we're going in a wrong direction somehow
>>> ....
>>> Sorry for the rant.  There are a bunch of unrelated things here, ...
>>> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:29, Jean-Baptiste Onofré<jb@nanthrax.net>  
>>>> Claus already raised a Jira about that.
>>>> Guillaume wasn't very ok to set the jre.properties by default.
>>>> On the other hand, I launched a discussion thread about Karaf profiles. It's
>>>> typically the kind of tuning which is part of a profiles.
>>>> Waiting for the profiles design, we can provide a Karaf Enterprise
>>>> distribution including this kind of tuning related to Camel/CXF/SMX.
>>>> I add Karaf dev mailing list to see what the team says :)
>>>> Regards
>>>> JB
>>>> On 02/02/2011 11:21 AM, Christian Schneider wrote:
>>>>> Are these adapted jre.properties only usefull for Servicemix and the
>>>>> Talend Service Factory or do you think it would make sense to change
them in
>>>>> the karaf distribution.
>>>>> Best regards
>>>>> Christian
>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>> Von: Jean-Baptiste Onofré [mailto:jb@nanthrax.net]
>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. Februar 2011 11:02
>>>>> An: users@camel.apache.org
>>>>> Betreff: Re: AW: Problem when starting camel-cxf in karaf
>>>>> Yeah, you can take a look on the ServiceMix one too :)
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> JB
>>>>> On 02/02/2011 10:26 AM, Christian Schneider wrote:
>>>>>> I think I was able to solve the problem. I had to change the
>>>>>> jre.properties to exclude some packages from the system bundle export.
>>>>>> The jre.properties from the Talend Service Factory seem to work:
>>>>>> http://de.talend.com/products-application-integration/talend-service-factory-community-edition.php
>>>>>> Christian


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