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From Rajini Sivaram <rajinisiva...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] KIP-486 Support for pluggable KeyStore and TrustStore
Date Fri, 30 Aug 2019 09:03:20 GMT
Just to make sure we are on the same page - KIP-383 was written before the
code was refactored. The refactoring addressed some of the concerns of
KIP-383. My suggestion was to make SslEngineBuilder configurable. The
default implementation of this pluggable class would be
https://github.com/apache/kafka/blob/trunk/clients/src/main/java/org/apache/kafka/common/security/ssl/SslEngineBuilder.java.
That should give an idea of the size of the configurable part that a custom
class needs to implement. A large part of that is about loading
keystore/truststore. I agree it has slightly more code than KIP-486
proposes, but since it lets you customize creation of SSLEngine, it would
address every possible scenario.

Thoughts?


On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 2:02 AM Maulin Vasavada <maulin.vasavada@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I thought about it more. I feel that no matter how we refactor the code
> (with or without KIP-383 integrated), ultimately the need of customizing
> loading for keys and certs will still remain. Whenever that need arises we
> might end up thinking about the solution suggested by our KIP-486. Hence
> regardless of the other KIPs and configurations "if we do need to customize
> loading of keys/certs, we will need the code changes suggested by this
> KIP".
>
> Let me know what you guys think.
>
> Harsha, we are working on changing the interfaces for key/trust store
> loaders with Certificate and PrivateKey objects. Will probably be able to
> update it later today or tomorrow.
>
> Thanks
> Maulin
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 2:30 PM Maulin Vasavada <maulin.vasavada@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > On that, I actually looked at KIP-383 before briefly. However,  that
> > sounded like lot of changes suggested.
> >
> > One "key" thing we have to keep in mind is - IF we need lot of
> > customization Kafka already allows you to use your SslProvider via
> > ssl.providers or the changes done by KIP-492 and
> > SSLContext.getInstance(protocol, provider) call allows us to return the
> > SSLContext with "ALL" the details we would like to customize. Hence I am
> > not sure that customization suggested by KIP-383 would be worth the
> effort.
> > We also have similar SSLContext customization outside of Kafka.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Maulin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 12:47 PM Pellerin, Clement <
> > Clement_Pellerin@ibi.com> wrote:
> >
> >> KIP-383 in its present form was vetoed because it was not possible to
> add
> >> validation of custom properties in a future KIP. The solution to that is
> >> the first proposal I wrote for KIP-383 which made the whole SslFactory
> >> pluggable. That first solution was also vetoed hence the deadlock.
> >>
> >> Replacing the whole factory was a much nicer solution. It was vetoed
> >> because doing this almost invariably meant the replacement lost all the
> >> complex validation code in the default SslFactory.
> >>
> >> My current idea is to extract the validation code into another public
> API
> >> that SslFactory would call. I did not look at the newly refactored code
> and
> >> I did not study how to do this yet. KIP-383 was not popular at the time
> and
> >> designing a new solution is a lot of work.
> >>
> >> Is there interest from 3 binding voters for something like this?
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Rajini Sivaram [mailto:rajinisivaram@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2019 2:57 PM
> >> To: dev
> >> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] KIP-486 Support for pluggable KeyStore and
> >> TrustStore
> >>
> >> Hi Maulin,
> >>
> >> In SSL scenarios, I imagine security providers introduced by KIP-492 are
> >> likely to be most useful when you want to use third party providers. The
> >> biggest advantage of the config from that KIP is that you don't need to
> >> write much code to integrate existing security providers into Kafka
> >> brokers
> >> or clients. As I understand it, KIP-486 is a more convenient option for
> >> the
> >> specific problem of loading keystores/truststores differently. It can be
> >> achieved in theory with KIP-492, but KIP-486 is a much simpler option
> for
> >> this case.
> >>
> >> My concern about KIP-486 is that it introduces yet another interface
> into
> >> our already complex security code, while only solving one particular use
> >> case. Have you looked at
> >>
> >>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-383%3A++Pluggable+interface+for+SSL+Factory
> >> ?
> >> The goal was to make
> >> org.apache.kafka.common.security.ssl.SslEngineBuilder pluggable.
> >> The code has already been refactored by Colin after that KIP was
> written,
> >> making it easier to implement KIP-383. This should enable you to load
> your
> >> keystores and truststores differently. Using a pluggable
> SslEngineBuilder
> >> will also solve several other use cases at the same time. KIP-383 hasn't
> >> been voted through yet, but perhaps you could take a look and we could
> >> revive that instead if it solves your use case as well?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Rajini
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 6:42 PM Maulin Vasavada <
> >> maulin.vasavada@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi Harsha
> >> >
> >> > Thank you. Appreciate your time and support on this. Let me go back do
> >> some
> >> > more research and get back to you on the KeyStore interface part.
> >> > Basically, if we return certs and keys in the interface then Kafka
> code
> >> > will have to build KeyStore object - which is also reasonable.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks
> >> > Maulin
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 10:01 AM Harsha Chintalapani <kafka@harsha.io
> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hi Maulin,
> >> > >                     Use cases are clear now. I am +1 for moving
> >> forward
> >> > > with the discussions on having such configurable option for users.
> But
> >> > the
> >> > > interfaces is proposed doesn't look right to me. We are still
> talking
> >> > about
> >> > > keystore interfaces.  Given keystore's are used as filebased way of
> >> > > transporting certificates I am not sure it will help the rest of the
> >> > > user-base.
> >> > >                   In short, I am +1 on the KIP's motivation and only
> >> have
> >> > > questions around returning keystores instead of returning certs,
> >> private
> >> > > keys etc. . If others in the community are ok with such interface we
> >> can
> >> > > move forward.
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks,
> >> > > Harsha
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 1:51 PM, Maulin Vasavada <
> >> > > maulin.vasavada@gmail.com>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hi Harsha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > As we synced-up offline on this topic, we hope you don't have any
> >> more
> >> > > > clarifications that you are seeking. If that is the case, can you
> >> > please
> >> > > > help us move this forward and discuss what changes you would
> expect
> >> on
> >> > > the
> >> > > > KIP design in order to make it valuable contribution?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Just FYI - we verified our primary design change with the author
> of
> >> > Sun's
> >> > > > X509 Trustmanager implementation and the outcome is that what we
> are
> >> > > > proposing makes sense at the heart of it - "Instead of writing
> >> > > TrustManager
> >> > > > just plugin the Trust store". We are open to discuss additional
> >> changes
> >> > > > that you/anybody else would like to see on the functionality
> >> however.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks
> >> > > > Maulin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:12 PM Maulin Vasavada <
> >> > > maulin.vasavada@gmail.com>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Harsha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Any response on my question? I feel this KIP is worth
> accommodating.
> >> > Your
> >> > > > help is much appreciated.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks
> >> > > > Maulin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:52 PM Maulin Vasavada <
> >> > maulin.vasavada@gmail.
> >> > > > com> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Harsha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I've examined the SPIFFE provider more and have one question -
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If SPIFFE didn't have a need to do checkSpiffeId() call at the
> below
> >> > > > location, would you really still write the Provider? *OR* Would
> you
> >> > just
> >> > > > use TrustManagerFactory.init(KeyStore) signature to pass the
> >> KeyStore
> >> > > from
> >> > > > set of certs returned by spiffeIdManager. getTrustedCerts()?
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> https://github.com/spiffe/java-spiffe/blob/master/src/main/java/spiffe/
> >> > > > provider/CertificateUtils.java#L100
> >> > > >
> >> > > > /**
> >> > > >
> >> > > > * Validates that the SPIFFE ID is present and matches the SPIFFE
> ID
> >> > > > configured in
> >> > > > * the java.security property ssl.spiffe.accept
> >> > > > *
> >> > > > * If the authorized spiffe ids list is empty any spiffe id is
> >> > authorized
> >> > > > *
> >> > > > * @param chain an array of X509Certificate that contains the
> Peer's
> >> > SVID
> >> > > > to be validated
> >> > > > * @throws CertificateException when either the certificates
> doesn't
> >> > have
> >> > > a
> >> > > > SPIFFE ID or the SPIFFE ID is not authorized
> >> > > > */
> >> > > > static void checkSpiffeId(X509Certificate[] chain) throws
> >> > > > CertificateException {
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks
> >> > > > Maulin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 4:49 PM Harsha Chintalapani <
> >> kafka@harsha.io>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Maulin,
> >> > > > The code parts you are pointing are specific for Spiffe and if
> >> > > > you are talking about validate method which uses PKIX check like
> any
> >> > > other
> >> > > > provider does.
> >> > > > If you want to default to SunJSSE everywhere you can do so by
> >> > delegating
> >> > > > the calls in these methods to SunJSSE provider.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > TrustManagerFactory tmf = TrustManagerFactory
> >> > > > .getInstance(TrustManagerFactory.getDefaultAlgorithm());and use
> >> > > > tmf.chekServerTrusted()
> >> > > > or use
> >> > > > https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/javax/net/ssl/
> >> > > > TrustManagerFactory.html#getInstance(java.lang.String)if you want
> a
> >> > > > specific provider.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > -Harsha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 4:26 PM, Maulin Vasavada <
> >> > maulin.vasavada@gmail.
> >> > > > com>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Okay, so I take that you guys agree that I have to write a
> 'custom'
> >> > > > algorithm and a provider to make it work , correct?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Now, for Harsha's comment "Here the 'Custom' Algorithm is not an
> >> > > > implementation per say , ..." , I diagree. You can refer to
> https://
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> >>
> github.com/spiffe/java-spiffe/blob/master/src/main/java/spiffe/provider/
> >> > > >
> >> > > > SpiffeTrustManager.java#L91 <http://spiffetrustmanager.java/#L91>
> >> and
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> https://github.com/spiffe/java-spiffe/blob/master/src/main/java/spiffe/
> >> > > >
> >> > > > provider/CertificateUtils.java#L100
> >> > > >
> >> > > > "that code" is the customization you have for the custom way to
> >> check
> >> > > > something on top of regular checks. That method is NOT doing
> custom
> >> > > > truststore loading. It is validating/verifying something in the
> >> > > >
> >> > > > "custom"
> >> > > >
> >> > > > way with spiffeId.
> >> > > > I bet that without that you won't have a need of the custom
> >> algorithm
> >> > > >
> >> > > > in
> >> > > >
> >> > > > the first place.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Let me know if you agree to this.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks
> >> > > > Maulin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 2:08 PM Sandeep Mopuri <mprsai@gmail.com>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Maulin, thanks for the discussion. As Harsha pointed out, to
> use
> >> the
> >> > > > KIP492, you need to create a new provider, register a *new* custom
> >> > > > algorithm for your keymanager and trustmanager factory
> >> implementations.
> >> > > > After this, the kafka server configuration can be done as given
> >> below
> >> > > >
> >> > > > # Register the provider class with custom algorithm, say CUSTOM
> >> > > >
> >> > > > security.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > provider.classes=com.company.security.CustomProvider
> >> > > > <http://provider.classes=com.company.security.customprovider/>
> >> > > > <http://security.provider.classes
> >> > > >
> >> > > > =com.company.security.customprovider/>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > # Register the keymanager and trustmanager algorithms
> >> > > > # These algorithms indicate that the Keymanager and Trustmanagers
> >> > > > registered under the algorithm "CUSTOM" needs to be used
> >> > > > ssl.trustmanager.algorithm=CUSTOM
> >> > > > ssl.keymanager.algorithm=CUSTOM
> >> > > >
> >> > > > And the customprovider looks like this...
> >> > > >
> >> > > > public class CustomProvider extends Provider {
> >> > > > public CustomProvider() {
> >> > > > super("NEW_CUSTOM_PROVIDER", 0.1, "Custom KeyStore and
> TrustStore");
> >> > > > super.put("KeyManagerFactory.CUSTOM", "customKeyManagerFactory");
> >> > > > super.put("TrustManagerFactory.CUSTOM",
> >> > > > "customTrustManagerFactory");
> >> > > > }
> >> > > > }
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The PR for this is in review and can be found here:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://github.com/
> >> > > >
> >> > > > apache/kafka/pull/7090
> >> > > > This PR includes the fixed insertProviderAt function call.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 9:56 AM Harsha Chintalapani <
> >> kafka@harsha.io>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Answers are in-line
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:45 PM, Maulin Vasavada <
> >> > > >
> >> > > > maulin.vasavada@gmail.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > com
> >> > > >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Colin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > When I refer to "standard" or "custom" algorithms I am following
> >> Java
> >> > > > security Provider Terminology. You can refer to
> >> > > > https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/security/
> >> > > > StandardNames.html#TrustManagerFactory link I provided earlier in
> >> the
> >> > > > emails. It says PKIX is the default Algorithm for
> >> TrustManagerFactory.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 1. For SPIFFE, I am not sure why you are saying 'it does not
> >> implement
> >> > > > custom algorithms' because the following file clearly indicates
> >> that it
> >> > > > does use custom algorithm-
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> https://github.com/spiffe/java-spiffe/blob/master/src/main/java/spiffe/
> >> > > >
> >> > > > provider/SpiffeProvider.java#L17
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Algorithm value:
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> https://github.com/spiffe/java-spiffe/blob/master/src/main/java/spiffe/
> >> > > >
> >> > > > provider/SpiffeProviderConstants.java#L6
> >> > > >
> >> > > > @Harsha do you want to chime in since you use that provider?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Here the "Custom" Algorithm is not an implementation per say ,
> >> rather
> >> > > >
> >> > > > used
> >> > > >
> >> > > > to invoke the custom trust store factory and key manager factory.
> >> You
> >> > > >
> >> > > > are
> >> > > >
> >> > > > not moving away from "standard" alogrithms that are available.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> https://github.com/spiffe/java-spiffe/blob/master/src/main/java/spiffe/
> >> > > >
> >> > > > provider/SpiffeTrustManager.java
> >> > > >
> >> > > > As you can see it delegates all the calls of verification of
> >> > > >
> >> > > > certificate
> >> > > >
> >> > > > to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > the default implementation available.
> >> > > > So in our implementation we still use PKIX to verify the
> certificate
> >> > > > chain. So you are not losing anything here and Spiffe is not
> >> > > >
> >> > > > reimplementing
> >> > > >
> >> > > > the verification process.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 2. I already mentioned in my 3rd point, in my previous post, why
> >> using
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ssl.provider does NOT work. I updated KIP-486 in "rejected
> >> > > >
> >> > > > alternatives"
> >> > > >
> >> > > > also why ssl.provider does not work.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > As mentioned before , provider is the right way to go. I am still
> >> not
> >> > > > understanding the gap is.
> >> > > > If I understand correctly your argument is , provider is going to
> >> ask
> >> > > >
> >> > > > to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > implement a custom algorithm.
> >> > > > My answer to that is , no you are not re-implementing the
> algorithm.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Please
> >> > > >
> >> > > > check the above link , TrustManager implementation it delegates
> the
> >> > > >
> >> > > > calls
> >> > > >
> >> > > > back. There is no need to implement your own here.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 3. Security.insertProviderAt() comments were based on assumption
> if
> >> > > >
> >> > > > KIP-492
> >> > > >
> >> > > > changes are done and we use that mechanism to configure providers
> >> > > >
> >> > > > instead
> >> > > >
> >> > > > of ssl.provider configuration.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > KIP-492 has patch available and going through review.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Can you read my all the points, I mentioned in my previous post,
> >> very
> >> > > >
> >> > > > carefully? I am covering all the aspects in explaining. I am open
> to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > still
> >> > > >
> >> > > > discuss more to clarify any doubts.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > "3. If we just use existing ssl.provider kafka configuration then
> >> our
> >> > > > provider will be used in SSLContext.getInstance(protocol,
> provider)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > call
> >> > > >
> >> > > > in
> >> > > >
> >> > > > SslFactory.java <http://sslfactory.java/> <
> http://sslfactory.java/>
> >> <
> >> > > > http://sslfactory.java/>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > and
> >> > > >
> >> > > > if our provider does not have
> >> > > > implementation for SSLContext.TLS/TLSv1.1/TLSv1.2 etc it breaks
> (we
> >> > > >
> >> > > > tested
> >> > > >
> >> > > > it). Example: In MyProvider sample above you see that I didn't add
> >> > > > SSLContext.TLSv1 as
> >> > > > "Service+Algorithm" and that didn't work for me. In SPIFFE
> provider
> >> you
> >> > > > don't have this challenge since you are planning to bypass
> >> ssl.provider
> >> > > >
> >> > > > as
> >> > > >
> >> > > > you mention in the KIP-492."
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Yes here you need to pass the protocol that your
> >> > > >
> >> > > > KeyManager/TrustManager
> >> > > >
> >> > > > registered with and in no way its deviating from TLS RFC spec.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> https://github.com/srisatish/openjdk/blob/master/jdk/src/share/classes/
> >> > > >
> >> > > > javax/net/ssl/SSLContext.java#L134
> >> > > >
> >> > > > My suggestion here is for you to implement a simple Security
> >> Provider
> >> > > >
> >> > > > as
> >> > > >
> >> > > > you did before and register a Algorithm. You can use the existing
> >> > > > implementation in SpiffeProvider and plug in changes where you
> need
> >> to
> >> > > > retrieve the certificates from by making RPC call.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Run an end-to-end test with Kafka broker coming up with your
> >> provider
> >> > > > making calls to RPC call. You do need to pass the "custom
> algorithm"
> >> > > >
> >> > > > that
> >> > > >
> >> > > > you registered in your key manager to invoke the provider. I think
> >> your
> >> > > > concern is this approach is replacing the existing known
> >> ciphersuites
> >> > > >
> >> > > > and
> >> > > >
> >> > > > certificate validation provided by java. Which its not.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Now test the TLS connection you can do so via openssl -s_client
> >> options
> >> > > >
> >> > > > to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > test if everything else is working.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I am happy to share configs that we used if you are interested.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > Harsha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks
> >> > > > Maulin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 9:52 AM Colin McCabe <cmccabe@apache.org>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Maulin,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > A lot of JSSE providers don't implement custom algorithms. Spire
> is
> >> a
> >> > > >
> >> > > > good
> >> > > >
> >> > > > example of a JSSE provider that doesn't, and yet is still useful
> to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > many
> >> > > >
> >> > > > people. Your JSSE provider can work fine even if it doesn't
> >> implement a
> >> > > > custom algorithm.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the discussion
> >> of
> >> > > > Security.insertProviderAt() that you included. SslEngineBuilder
> >> doesn't
> >> > > >
> >> > > > use
> >> > > >
> >> > > > that API to get the security provider. Instead, it calls
> >> > > > "SSLContext.getInstance(protocol, provider)", where provider is
> the
> >> > > >
> >> > > > name
> >> > > >
> >> > > > of the provider.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > best,
> >> > > > Colin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019, at 20:13, Maulin Vasavada wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On top of everything above I feel strongly to add the 4th point
> >> which
> >> > > >
> >> > > > is
> >> > > >
> >> > > > based on Java APIs for TrustManagerFactory.init(KeyStore) (
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/javax/net/ssl/
> >> > > > TrustManagerFactory.html#init(java.security.KeyStore
> >> > > > <http://java.security.keystore/>
> >> > > > <http://java.security.keystore/>)
> >> > > > )
> >> > > >
> >> > > > and KeyManagerFactory.init(KeyStore, char[]) (
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/javax/net/ssl/KeyManagerFactory
> >> > > > .
> >> > > >
> >> > > > html#init(java.security.KeyStore <http://java.security.keystore/>
> >> > > <http://
> >> > > > java.security.keystore/
> >> > > > ,%20char[])
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 4. The above APIs are intended to support providing "trust/key
> >> > > >
> >> > > > material"
> >> > > >
> >> > > > from the user without having to write their own
> >> > > >
> >> > > > TrustManager/KeyManagers.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > To quote from the TrustManagerFactory.init()'s documentation
> >> > > >
> >> > > > "Initializes
> >> > > >
> >> > > > this factory with a source of certificate authorities and related
> >> trust
> >> > > > material."
> >> > > > To quote from the KeyManagerFactory.init()'s documentation
> >> "Initializes
> >> > > > this factory with a source of key material."
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Based on this it is clear that there is a flexibility provided by
> >> Java
> >> > > >
> >> > > > to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > to enable developers to provide the required trust/key material
> >> loaded
> >> > > >
> >> > > > from
> >> > > >
> >> > > > "anywhere" without requiring them to write custom provider OR
> >> trust/key
> >> > > > managers. This same flexibility is reflected in Kafka code also
> >> where
> >> > > >
> >> > > > it
> >> > > >
> >> > > > loads the trust/keys from a local file and doesn't require
> writing a
> >> > > > Provider necessarily. If we do NOT have a custom algorithm, it
> makes
> >> > > >
> >> > > > less
> >> > > >
> >> > > > sense to write a Provider.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks
> >> > > > Maulin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 11:45 PM Maulin Vasavada <
> >> > > >
> >> > > > maulin.vasavada@gmail.com>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Harsha/Colin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I did the sample with a custom Provider for TrustStoreManager and
> >> tried
> >> > > > using ssl.provider Kafka config AND the way KIP-492 is suggesting
> >> (by
> >> > > > adding Provider programmatically instead of relying on
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ssl.provider+java.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > security. The below sample is followed by my detailed findings.
> I'll
> >> > > > appreciate if you can go through it carefully and see
> >> > > >
> >> > > > if you
> >> > > >
> >> > > > see my point.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > package providertest;
> >> > > >
> >> > > > import java.security.Provider <http://java.security.provider/>
> >> > <http://
> >> > > > java.security.provider/>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > <http://
> >> > > >
> >> > > > java.security.provider/>;
> >> > > >
> >> > > > public class MyProvider extends Provider {
> >> > > >
> >> > > > private static final String name = "MyProvider"; private static
> >> double
> >> > > > version = 1.0d;
> >> > > > private static String info = "Maulin's SSL Provider v"+version;
> >> > > >
> >> > > > public MyProvider() {
> >> > > > super(name, version, info);
> >> > > > this.put("TrustManagerFactory.PKIX",
> >> > > >
> >> > > > "providertest.MyTrustManagerFactory");
> >> > > >
> >> > > > }
> >> > > > }
> >> > > >
> >> > > > *Details:*
> >> > > >
> >> > > > KIP-492 documents that it will use Security.addProvider() assuming
> >> it
> >> > > >
> >> > > > will
> >> > > >
> >> > > > add it as position '0' which is not a correct assumption. The
> >> > > > addProvider()'s documentation says it will add it to the last
> >> available
> >> > > > position. You may want to correct that to say
> >> > > > Security.insertProviderAt(provider, 1).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Now coming back to our specific discussion,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 1. SPIFFE example uses Custom Algorithm - spiffe. Hence when you
> add
> >> > > >
> >> > > > that
> >> > > >
> >> > > > provider in the provider list via Security.addProvider() the
> >> position
> >> > > >
> >> > > > where
> >> > > >
> >> > > > it gets added doesn't matter (even if you don't end up adding it
> as
> >> > > >
> >> > > > first
> >> > > >
> >> > > > entry) since that is the ONLY provider for SPIFFE specific
> algorithm
> >> > > >
> >> > > > you
> >> > > >
> >> > > > might have.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > We do *not* have custom algorithm for Key/Trust StoreMangers.
> Which
> >> > > >
> >> > > > means
> >> > > >
> >> > > > we have to use X509, PKIX etc "Standard Algorithms" ((
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/security/
> >> > > > StandardNames.html
> >> > > > ))
> >> > > >
> >> > > > in our provider to override the TrustStoreManager (see my sample
> >> code)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > and
> >> > > >
> >> > > > KeyStoreManger and KeyManager. This creates another challenge
> >> > > >
> >> > > > mentioned in
> >> > > >
> >> > > > the below point.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 2. In order to make our Provider for loading custom TrustStore
> >> work, we
> >> > > > have to add the provider as 'first' in the list since there are
> >> others
> >> > > >
> >> > > > with
> >> > > >
> >> > > > the same algorithm.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > However, the programatic way of adding provider
> >> > > > (Security.insertProviderAt()) is *not* deterministic for ordering
> >> since
> >> > > > different code can call the method for a different provider and
> >> > > >
> >> > > > depending
> >> > > >
> >> > > > upon the order of the call our provider can be first or pushed
> down
> >> the
> >> > > > list. This can happen very well in any client application using
> >> Kafka.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > This
> >> > > >
> >> > > > is specially problematic for a case when you want to guarantee
> order
> >> > > >
> >> > > > for a
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Provider having "Standard Algorithms".
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If we add our provider in java.security file that definitely
> >> guarantees
> >> > > > the order(unless somebody calls removeProvider() which is less
> >> > > >
> >> > > > likely). But
> >> > > >
> >> > > > if we add our provider in java.security file it will defeat the
> >> > > >
> >> > > > purpose of
> >> > > >
> >> > > > the KIP-492.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In the gist - Apache Kafka must not rely on "un-deterministic"
> >> method
> >> > > >
> >> > > > to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > rely on Provider ordering.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 3. If we just use existing ssl.provider kafka configuration then
> our
> >> > > > provider will be used in SSLContext.getInstance(protocol,
> provider)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > call in
> >> > > >
> >> > > > SslFactory.java <http://sslfactory.java/> <
> http://sslfactory.java/>
> >> <
> >> > > > http://sslfactory.java/>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > and
> >> > > >
> >> > > > if our provider does not have implementation for
> >> > > > SSLContext.TLS/TLSv1.1/TLSv1.2 etc it breaks
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (we
> >> > > >
> >> > > > tested it). Example:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In
> >> > > >
> >> > > > MyProvider sample above you see that I didn't add SSLContext.TLSv1
> >> as
> >> > > > "Service+Algorithm" and that didn't work for me. In SPIFFE
> provider
> >> you
> >> > > > don't have this challenge since you are planning to bypass
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ssl.provider as
> >> > > >
> >> > > > you mention in the KIP-492.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > *Overall summary,*
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 1. Any provider based mechanisms- a) existing ssl.provider and
> >> > > >
> >> > > > b)KIP-492,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > for loading key/trust store using "Standard Algorithms" do not
> work
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 2. Approach suggested in our KIP-486 works without any issue and
> it
> >> is
> >> > > > *not* our context specific solve
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 3. Based on above we feel KIP-492 and KIP-486 are complimentary
> >> changes
> >> > > > and not contradicting or redundent.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If you want we can do a joint session somehow to walk through the
> >> > > >
> >> > > > sample I
> >> > > >
> >> > > > have and various experiments I did. I would encourage you to do
> >> similar
> >> > > > exercise by writing a Provider for "Standard Algorithm" for
> >> > > > TrustStoreManager (like our needs) and see what you find since
> only
> >> > > >
> >> > > > writing
> >> > > >
> >> > > > samples can bring out the complexity/challenges we face.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks
> >> > > > Maulin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 11:15 PM Maulin Vasavada <
> >> > > >
> >> > > > maulin.vasavada@gmail.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > com> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Just to update - still working on it. Get to work only on and off
> on
> >> > > >
> >> > > > it :(
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 4:05 PM Maulin Vasavada <
> >> > > >
> >> > > > maulin.vasavada@gmail.com>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Harsha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Let me try to write samples and will let you know.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks
> >> > > > Maulin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 4:00 PM Harsha Ch <harsha.ch@gmail.com>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Maulin,
> >> > > > With java security providers can be as custom you would
> >> > > >
> >> > > > like
> >> > > >
> >> > > > it to
> >> > > > be. If you only want to to implement a custom way of loading the
> >> > > >
> >> > > > keystore
> >> > > >
> >> > > > and truststore and not implement any protocol/encryption handling
> >> you
> >> > > >
> >> > > > can
> >> > > >
> >> > > > leave them empty and no need to implement. Have you looked into
> the
> >> > > >
> >> > > > links I
> >> > > >
> >> > > > pasted before?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://github.com/spiffe/spiffe-example/blob/master/java-spiffe/
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> spiffe-security-provider/src/main/java/spiffe/api/provider/SpiffeKeyStore.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > java
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://github.com/spiffe/spiffe-example/blob/master/java-spiffe/
> >> > > > spiffe-security-provider/src/main/java/spiffe/api/provider/
> >> > > > SpiffeTrustManager.java <http://spiffetrustmanager.java/>
> <http://
> >> > > > spiffetrustmanager.java/>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://github.com/spiffe/spiffe-example/blob/master/java-spiffe/
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> spiffe-security-provider/src/main/java/spiffe/api/provider/SpiffeProvider.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > java
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Can you please tell me which methods are too complex in above to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > implement
> >> > > >
> >> > > > or unnecessary? You are changing anything in SSL/TLS
> implementations
> >> > > > provided by
> >> > > >
> >> > > > All of the implementations delegating the checks to the default
> >> > > > implementation anyway.
> >> > > > Spire agent is an example, its nothing but a GRPC server listening
> >> > > >
> >> > > > on a
> >> > > >
> >> > > > unix domain socket . Above code is making a RPC call to the local
> >> > > >
> >> > > > daemon
> >> > > >
> >> > > > to
> >> > > > get the certificate and keys. The mechanics are pretty much same
> as
> >> > > >
> >> > > > what
> >> > > >
> >> > > > you are asking for.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > Harsha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 3:47 PM Maulin Vasavada <
> >> > > >
> >> > > > maulin.vasavada@gmail.com>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Imagine a scenario like - We know we have a custom KMS and as a
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Kafka
> >> > > >
> >> > > > owner
> >> > > >
> >> > > > we want to comply to using that KMS source to load keys/certs. As
> >> > > >
> >> > > > a
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Kafka
> >> > > >
> >> > > > owner we know how to integrate with KMS but doesn't necessarily
> >> > > >
> >> > > > have
> >> > > >
> >> > > > to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > know anything about cipher suites, algorithms, and SSL/TLS
> >> > > >
> >> > > > implementation.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Going the Provider way requires to know lot more than we should,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > isn't it?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Not that we would have concern/shy-away knowing those details -
> >> > > >
> >> > > > but
> >> > > >
> >> > > > if we
> >> > > >
> >> > > > don't have to - why should we?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 3:23 PM Maulin Vasavada <
> >> > > >
> >> > > > maulin.vasavada@gmail.com>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Harsha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > We don't have spire (or similar) agents and we do not have
> >> > > >
> >> > > > keys/certs
> >> > > >
> >> > > > locally on any brokers. To elaborate more on my previous email,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I agree that Java security Providers are used in much broader
> >> > > >
> >> > > > sense
> >> > > >
> >> > > > - to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > have a particular implementation of an algorithm, use specific
> >> > > >
> >> > > > cipher
> >> > > >
> >> > > > suites for SSL , OR in our current team's case have a
> >> > > >
> >> > > > particular
> >> > > >
> >> > > > way to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > leverage pre-generated SSL sessions. However, the scope of our
> >> > > >
> >> > > > KIP
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (486)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > is
> >> > > >
> >> > > > much restricted than that. We merely intend to provide a custom
> >> > > > keystore/truststore for our SSL connections and not really worry
> >> > > >
> >> > > > about
> >> > > >
> >> > > > underlying specific SSL/TLS implementation. This simplifies it
> >> > > >
> >> > > > a
> >> > > >
> >> > > > lot for
> >> > > >
> >> > > > us to keep the concerns separate and clear.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I feel our approach is more complimentary such that it allows
> >> > > >
> >> > > > for
> >> > > >
> >> > > > using
> >> > > >
> >> > > > keystores of choice while retaining the flexibility to use any
> >> > > > underlying/available Provider for actually making the SSL call.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > We agree with KIP-492's approach based on Providers (and Java's
> >> > > > recommendation), but also strongly believe that our approach can
> >> > > >
> >> > > > compliment
> >> > > >
> >> > > > it very effectively for reasons explained above.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks
> >> > > > Maulin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 3:05 PM Harsha Chintalapani <
> >> > > >
> >> > > > kafka@harsha.io
> >> > > >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Maulin,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 2:04 PM, Maulin Vasavada <
> >> > > >
> >> > > > maulin.vasavada@gmail.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > com>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Harsha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The reason we rejected the SslProvider route is that - we
> >> > > >
> >> > > > only
> >> > > >
> >> > > > needed
> >> > > >
> >> > > > a
> >> > > >
> >> > > > custom way to load keys/certs. Not touch any policy that
> >> > > >
> >> > > > existing
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Providers
> >> > > >
> >> > > > govern like SunJSSE Provider.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > We have exactly the same requirements to load certs and keys
> >> > > >
> >> > > > through
> >> > > >
> >> > > > spire
> >> > > >
> >> > > > agent. We used security.provider to do that exactly. I am not
> >> > > >
> >> > > > sure
> >> > > >
> >> > > > why
> >> > > >
> >> > > > you
> >> > > >
> >> > > > would be modifying any policies provided by default SunJSSE
> >> > > >
> >> > > > provider.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Can
> >> > > >
> >> > > > you give me an example of having custom provider that will
> >> > > >
> >> > > > override an
> >> > > >
> >> > > > existing policy in SunJSSE provider.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > As pointed out earlier, this kip
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/
> >> > > > KIP-492%3A+Add+java+security+providers+in+Kafka+Security+config
> >> > > >
> >> > > > allows
> >> > > > you to load security.provider through config.
> >> > > > Take a look at the examples I gave before
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://github.com/spiffe/spiffe-example/blob/master/java-spiffe/
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> spiffe-security-provider/src/main/java/spiffe/api/provider/SpiffeProvider.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > java
> >> > > >
> >> > > > It registers KeyManagerFactory and TrustManagerFactory and
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Keystore
> >> > > >
> >> > > > algorithm.
> >> > > > Implement your custom way of loading Keystore in here
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://github.com/spiffe/spiffe-example/blob/master/java-spiffe/
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> spiffe-security-provider/src/main/java/spiffe/api/provider/SpiffeKeyStore.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > java
> >> > > >
> >> > > > and Trust manager like here
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://github.com/spiffe/spiffe-example/blob/master/java-spiffe/
> >> > > > spiffe-security-provider/src/main/java/spiffe/api/provider/
> >> > > > SpiffeTrustManager.java <http://spiffetrustmanager.java/>
> <http://
> >> > > > spiffetrustmanager.java/>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In your Kafka client you can set the security.provider to your
> >> > > >
> >> > > > custom
> >> > > >
> >> > > > implementation and with this fix
> >> > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KAFKA-8191 you can set
> >> > > > keyManagerAlgorigthm and trustManagerAlgorithm configs.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > All of this is in your clients and broker side and do not need
> >> > > >
> >> > > > to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > touch
> >> > > >
> >> > > > any
> >> > > > policy changes at JVM level. You'll register the providers in
> >> > > >
> >> > > > the
> >> > > >
> >> > > > priority
> >> > > >
> >> > > > order and can still have SunJSSE provider and have your custom
> >> > > >
> >> > > > provider
> >> > > >
> >> > > > to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > implement the key and trust managers.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The ask here is different than KIP-492. We don't have any need
> >> > > >
> >> > > > to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > modify/specify the algorithm parameter. Does that make sense?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The ask in KIP is introducing new interfaces where the KIP's
> >> > > > goal/motivation can be achieved through the security.provider
> >> > > >
> >> > > > and
> >> > > >
> >> > > > we
> >> > > >
> >> > > > worked
> >> > > > on similar goal without touching any Keystore or Truststore
> >> > > >
> >> > > > interfaces.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > My advise is against changing or introducing new interfaces
> >> > > >
> >> > > > when
> >> > > >
> >> > > > it can
> >> > > >
> >> > > > work through security.provider.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > Harsha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Maulin
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 7:48 AM Harsha Chintalapani <
> >> > > >
> >> > > > kafka@harsha.io>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In your KIP you added security. provider as rejected
> >> > > >
> >> > > > alternative
> >> > > >
> >> > > > and
> >> > > >
> >> > > > specified "its not the correct way". Do you mind explaining
> >> > > >
> >> > > > why
> >> > > >
> >> > > > its
> >> > > >
> >> > > > not? I
> >> > > >
> >> > > > didn't find any evidence in Java docs to say so. Contrary to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > your
> >> > > >
> >> > > > statement
> >> > > >
> >> > > > it does say in the java docs
> >> > > > " However, please note that a provider can be used to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > implement
> >> > > >
> >> > > > any
> >> > > >
> >> > > > security service in Java that uses a pluggable architecture
> >> > > >
> >> > > > with
> >> > > >
> >> > > > a
> >> > > >
> >> > > > choice
> >> > > >
> >> > > > of implementations that fit underneath."
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Java Security Providers have been used by other projects to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > provide
> >> > > >
> >> > > > such
> >> > > >
> >> > > > integration . I am not sure if you looked into Spiffe
> >> > > >
> >> > > > project to
> >> > > >
> >> > > > efficiently distribute certificates but here is an example of
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Java
> >> > > >
> >> > > > provider
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://github.com/spiffe/spiffe-example/blob/master/java-spiffe/
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> spiffe-security-provider/src/main/java/spiffe/api/provider/SpiffeProvider.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > java which
> >> > > > obtains certificates from local daemons.
> >> > > > These integrations are being used in Tomcat, Jetty etc.. We
> >> > > >
> >> > > > are
> >> > > >
> >> > > > also
> >> > > >
> >> > > > using
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Security provider to do the same in our Kafka clusters. So
> >> > > >
> >> > > > unless I
> >> > > >
> >> > > > see
> >> > > >
> >> > > > more evidence why security.provider doesn't work for you
> >> > > >
> >> > > > adding
> >> > > >
> >> > > > new
> >> > > >
> >> > > > interfaces while there exists more cleaner way of achieving
> >> > > >
> >> > > > the
> >> > > >
> >> > > > goals
> >> > > >
> >> > > > of
> >> > > >
> >> > > > this KIP is unnecessary and breaks the well known security
> >> > > >
> >> > > > interfaces
> >> > > >
> >> > > > provided by Java itself.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > Harsha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 6:54 AM, Harsha Chintalapani <
> >> > > >
> >> > > > kafka@harsha.io
> >> > > >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Maulin,
> >> > > > Not sure if you looked at my previous replies. This
> >> > > >
> >> > > > changes
> >> > > >
> >> > > > are not required as there is already security Provider to do
> >> > > >
> >> > > > what you
> >> > > >
> >> > > > are
> >> > > >
> >> > > > proposing. This KIP
> >> > > >
> >> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/
> >> > > >
> >> > > > KIP-492%3A+Add+java+security+providers+in+Kafka+Security+config
> >> > > >
> >> > > > also
> >> > > >
> >> > > > addresses easy registration of such providers.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > Harsha
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 11:31 PM, Maulin Vasavada
> >> > > >
> >> > > > <maulin.vasavada@gmail.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > com> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Bump! Can somebody please review this?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 1:51 PM Maulin Vasavada <
> >> > > >
> >> > > > maulin.vasavada@gmail.com>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Bump! Can somebody please review this?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > M.Sai Sandeep
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>

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