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From Becket Qin <becket....@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] KIP-134: Delay initial consumer group rebalance
Date Fri, 24 Mar 2017 23:01:24 GMT
Hi Matthias,

Yes, that was what I was thinking. We will keep delay it until either
reaching the rebalance timeout or no new consumer joins in that small delay
which is configured on the broker side.

Thanks,

Jiangjie (Becket) Qin

On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 1:39 PM, Matthias J. Sax <matthias@confluent.io>
wrote:

> @Becket:
>
> I am not sure, if I understand this correctly. Instead of applying a
> fixed delay, that starts when the first consumer of an (empty) group
> joins, you suggest to re-trigger/re-set the delay each time a new
> consumer joins?
>
> This sound like a good strategy to me, if the config is on the broker side.
>
> @Eno:
>
> I think that's a valid point and I like this idea!
>
>
> -Matthias
>
>
> On 3/24/17 1:23 PM, Eno Thereska wrote:
> > Thanks Damian,
> >
> > This KIP deals with the initial phase only. What about the cases when
> several consumers leave a group? Won't there be several expensive
> rebalances then as well? I'm wondering if it makes sense for the delay to
> hold anytime the "set" of consumers in a group changes, be it addition to
> the group or removal from group.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Eno
> >
> >
> >> On 24 Mar 2017, at 20:04, Becket Qin <becket.qin@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks for the KIP, Damian.
> >>
> >> My two cents on this. It seems there are two things worth thinking here:
> >>
> >> 1. Better rebalance timing. We will try to rebalance only when all the
> >> consumers in a group have joined. The challenge would be someone has to
> >> define what does ALL consumers mean, it could either be a time or
> number of
> >> consumers, etc.
> >>
> >> 2. Avoid frequent rebalance. For example, if there are 100 consumers in
> a
> >> group, today, in the worst case, we may end up with 100 rebalances even
> if
> >> all the consumers joined the group in a reasonably small amount of time.
> >> Frequent rebalance is also a bad thing for brokers.
> >>
> >> Having a client side configuration may solve problem 1 better because
> each
> >> consumer group can potentially configure their own timing. However, it
> does
> >> not really prevent frequent rebalance in general because some of the
> >> consumers can be misconfigured. (This may have something to do with
> KIP-124
> >> as well. But if quota is applied on the JoinGroup/SyncGroup request it
> may
> >> cause some unwanted cascading effects.)
> >>
> >> Having a broker side configuration may result in less flexibility for
> each
> >> consumer group, but it can prevent frequent rebalance better. I think
> with
> >> some reasonable design, the rebalance timing issue can be resolved on
> the
> >> broker side as well. Matthias had a good point on extending the delay
> when
> >> a new consumer joins a group (we actually did something similar to batch
> >> ISR change propagation). For example, let's say on the broker side, we
> will
> >> always delay 2 seconds each time we see a new consumer joining a
> consumer
> >> group. This would probably work for most of the consumer groups and will
> >> also limit the rebalance frequency to protect the brokers.
> >>
> >> I am not sure about the streams use case here, but if something like 2
> >> seconds of delay is acceptable for streams, I would prefer adding the
> >> configuration to the broker so that we can address both problems.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 5:30 AM, Damian Guy <damian.guy@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks for the feedback.
> >>>
> >>> Ewen: I'm happy to make it a client side config. Other than the
> protocol
> >>> bump i think the effort is almost the same. Personally i see no other
> >>> issues, but based on discussions with others this is what we came up
> with.
> >>>
> >>> True, it can probably be tested easily via an integration test.
> >>>
> >>> Matthias: Yes i agree, the delay could be extended as each new member
> joins
> >>> the group.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Damian
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 at 05:14 Ewen Cheslack-Postava <ewen@confluent.io>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I have the same initial response as Ismael re: broker vs consumer
> >>> settings.
> >>>> The global setting seems questionable.
> >>>>
> >>>> Could we maybe summarize what the impact of making this a client
> config
> >>>> would be? Protocol bump is obvious, but is there any other significant
> >>>> issue? For the protocol bump in particular, I think this change is
> >>>> currently really critical for streams; it will be valuable elsewhere,
> but
> >>>> the immediate demand is streams, so a protocol bump while being
> backwards
> >>>> compatible wouldn't affect any other clients. Is this still actually
> >>>> compatible with different clients given that they would now expect
> >>>> different timeouts? (I think it's strictly compatible if you wait for
> >>>> responses, but if you enforce any client side timeouts, I'm not so
> sure.)
> >>>>
> >>>> re: test plan, I'm sure this will come as a surprise, but is the
> system
> >>>> test even necessary? Validating # of rebalances seems messy as other
> >>> things
> >>>> can cause rebalances (though admittedly not in a "clean" case). But
> >>> really
> >>>> it seems like an integration test could validate this by making sure
> >>> only 1
> >>>> rebalance occurred when 2 members joined with a sufficient time gap.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Ewen
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Matthias J. Sax <
> matthias@confluent.io>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for the KIP Damian!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My two cents:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - we should have an explicit parameter for this -- implicit setting
> >>> are
> >>>>> always tricky (the "importance" of this parameter would be LOW)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - the config should be different for each consumer group:
> >>>>>   * assume you have a stateless app, you want to rebalance
> immediately
> >>>>>   * if you start-up in an visualized environment using some tools
> like
> >>>>> Mesos you might need a different value that on bare metal (no VM
to
> be
> >>>>> started)
> >>>>>   * it also depends, how many consumer instanced you expect -- it's
> >>>>> harder to start up 100 instances in 3 seconds than 5
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - the default value should be zero
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> One more thought: what about scaling scenarios? If a consumer group
> has
> >>>>> 10 instanced and should be scaled up to 20, it would make sense
to do
> >>>>> this with a single rebalance, too. Thus, I am wondering, if it would
> >>>>> make sense to apply this delay each time a new consumer joins group,
> >>>>> even if the group is not empty?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -Matthias
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 3/23/17 10:19 AM, Damian Guy wrote:
> >>>>>> Thanks Gouzhang - i think another problem with this is that
is
> >>>>> overloading
> >>>>>> session.timeout.ms to mean multiple things. I'm not sure that
is a
> >>>> good
> >>>>>> thing.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 at 17:14 Guozhang Wang <wangguoz@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The downside of it, though, is that although it "hides"
this from
> >>> most
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>> the users needing to be aware of it, by default session
timeout
> i.e.
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> rebalance timeout is 10 seconds which could arguably too
long.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Guozhang
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Guozhang Wang <
> wangguoz@gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Just throwing another alternative idea here: we can
consider using
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>> rebalance timeout value which is already included in
the join
> >>> request
> >>>>>>>> protocol (and on the current Java client it is always
written as
> >>> the
> >>>>>>>> session timeout value), that the first member joining
will always
> >>>> force
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> coordinator to wait that long. By doing this we do not
need to
> bump
> >>>> up
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> protocol either.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Guozhang
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Damian Guy <damian.guy@gmail.com
> >
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hi Ismael,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Mostly to avoid the protocol bump.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I agree that it may be difficult to choose the right
delay for
> all
> >>>>>>>>> consumer
> >>>>>>>>> groups, but we wanted to make this something that
most users
> don't
> >>>>>>> really
> >>>>>>>>> need to think about, i.e., a small enough default
delay that
> works
> >>>> in
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> majority of cases. However it would be much more
flexible as a
> >>>>> consumer
> >>>>>>>>> config, which i'm happy to pursue if this change
is worthy of a
> >>>>> protocol
> >>>>>>>>> bump.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>> Damian
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 at 12:35 Ismael Juma <ismael@juma.me.uk>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the KIP, Damian. It makes sense to
avoid multiple
> >>>>>>> rebalances
> >>>>>>>>>> during start-up. One issue with having this
as a broker config
> is
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>>> may be difficult to choose the right delay for
all consumer
> >>> groups.
> >>>>>>> Can
> >>>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>>> elaborate a little more on why the first alternative
(add a
> >>>> consumer
> >>>>>>>>>> config) was rejected? We bump protocol versions
regularly (when
> >>> it
> >>>>>>> makes
> >>>>>>>>>> sense), so it would be good to get a bit more
detail.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>> Ismael
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:24 PM, Damian Guy
<
> >>> damian.guy@gmail.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I've prepared a KIP to add a configurable
delay to the initial
> >>>>>>>>> consumer
> >>>>>>>>>>> group rebalance.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Please have look here:
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-
> >>>>>>>>>>> 134%3A+Delay+initial+consumer+group+rebalance
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Damian
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> BTW, i apologize if this appears twice.
Seems the first one may
> >>>> have
> >>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>> made it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> -- Guozhang
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> -- Guozhang
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >
>
>

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