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From Michael Pearce <Michael.Pea...@ig.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] KIP-98: Exactly Once Delivery and Transactional Messaging
Date Fri, 09 Dec 2016 06:19:05 GMT
Usecase in IG:

Fund transfer between accounts. When we debit one account and fund another we must ensure
the records to both occur as an acid action, and as a single transaction.

Today we achieve this because we have jms, as such we can do the actions needed in an xa transaction
across both the accounts. To move this flow to Kafka we would need support of XA transaction.



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________________________________________
From: Michael Pearce <Michael.Pearce@ig.com>
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2016 6:09:06 AM
To: dev@kafka.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] KIP-98: Exactly Once Delivery and Transactional Messaging

Hi Jay,

For me having an XA transaction allows for ensuring ACID across my application.

I believe it is part of the JMS api, and obviously JMS still is in enterprise very widely
adopted for Messaging transport , so obviously to say it isn't widely used i think is ignoring
a whole range of users. Like wise I believe frameworks like spring etc fully support it more
evidence of its wide adoption.

On this note personally we try to avoid transactions entirely in our flows for performance
and simplicity. but we do alas unfortunately have one or two places we cannot ignore it.

Cheers
Mike

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________________________________________
From: Jay Kreps <jay@confluent.io>
Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 11:25:53 PM
To: dev@kafka.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] KIP-98: Exactly Once Delivery and Transactional Messaging

Hey Edoardo,

For (3) can you outline what you think the benefit and use cases for a more
general cross-system XA feature would be an what changes to the proposal
would be required to enable it? When I have asked people who wanted
cross-system XA in the past what they wanted it for, I haven't really
gotten any answers that made sense. Every person really wanted something
that would be better solved by a transactional (or idempotent) write to
Kafka followed by an independent transactional (or idempotent) consumption
(which this proposal enables). For the use cases they described tying these
two things together had no advantage and many disadvantages.

I have one use case which would be accomplished by cross-system XA which is
allowing the producer to block on the synchronous processing of the message
by (all? some?) consumers. However I'm not convinced that cross-system XA
is the best solution to this problem, and I'm also not convinced this is an
important problem to solve. But maybe you have something in mind here.

-Jay



On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Edoardo Comar <ECOMAR@uk.ibm.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> thanks, very interesting KIP ... I haven't fully digested it yet.
>
> We have many users who choose not to use the Java client,  so I have
> concerns about the added complexity in developing the clients.
> A few questions.
>
> 1 - is mixing transactional and non transactional messages on the *same
> topic-partition* really a requirement ?
> What use case does it satisfy?
>
> 2 - I guess some clients may only be interested to implement the producer
> idempotency.
> It's not clear how they could be implemented without having to add the
> transaction capabilities.
> As others on this list have said, I too would like to see idempotency as a
> more basic feature, on top which txns can be built.
>
> 3 - The KIP seems focused on a use case where consumption from a topic and
> subsequent production are part of the producer transaction.
>
> It'd be great to see a way to extend the producer transaction to include
> additional transactional resources,
> so that the consumption from another topic just becomes a special case of
> a more general "distributed" txn.
>
> Edo
> --------------------------------------------------
> Edoardo Comar
> IBM MessageHub
> ecomar@uk.ibm.com
> IBM UK Ltd, Hursley Park, SO21 2JN
>
> IBM United Kingdom Limited Registered in England and Wales with number
> 741598 Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hants. PO6
> 3AU
>
>
>
> From:   Guozhang Wang <wangguoz@gmail.com>
> To:     "dev@kafka.apache.org" <dev@kafka.apache.org>
> Date:   30/11/2016 22:20
> Subject:        [DISCUSS] KIP-98: Exactly Once Delivery and Transactional
> Messaging
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have just created KIP-98 to enhance Kafka with exactly once delivery
> semantics:
>
> *https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-
> 98+-+Exactly+Once+Delivery+and+Transactional+Messaging
> <
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-
> 98+-+Exactly+Once+Delivery+and+Transactional+Messaging
> >*
>
> This KIP adds a transactional messaging mechanism along with an idempotent
> producer implementation to make sure that 1) duplicated messages sent from
> the same identified producer can be detected on the broker side, and 2) a
> group of messages sent within a transaction will atomically be either
> reflected and fetchable to consumers or not as a whole.
>
> The above wiki page provides a high-level view of the proposed changes as
> well as summarized guarantees. Initial draft of the detailed
> implementation
> design is described in this Google doc:
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/11Jqy_GjUGtdXJK94XGsEIK7CP1SnQGdp2eF
> 0wSw9ra8
>
>
> We would love to hear your comments and suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Guozhang
>
>
>
> Unless stated otherwise above:
> IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number
> 741598.
> Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU
>
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