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From Glen Mazza <glen.ma...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] How to proceed with the 3.0 efforts
Date Wed, 12 Dec 2012 22:10:01 GMT
OK, I haven't looked at Stripes much but from what you're saying it's 
still a JSP front-end, so at least that portion of Ichiro's concerns 
would be alleviated if we went to Stripes, even if the controller code 
would be rewritten to Java.  I like what you're saying about moving more 
of the code from scriptlets to JUnit-testable Java classes.  If we 
switch to a framework I think we primarily would need a trailblazer to 
convert the code over (preferably the person who is most comfortable 
with the framework we're switching to); once done, it's normally pretty 
easy for others to extrapolate what needs to be done to update it.

I can't see any immediate benefit of Struts over Stripes, but one thing 
to consider about Spring MVC though, even if it is more complex/clumsy 
to set up, is that once you put Spring into your application it might be 
easier to incorporate more of Spring's bells and whistles--maybe with 
security, maybe other things JSPWiki may wish to quickly grab as it goes 
along.  Then again, it is a heavier framework that might end up slowing 
JSPWiki down.


On 12/11/2012 07:07 PM, Juan Pablo Santos Rodríguez wrote:
> Hi,
> I think that the core idea of using Stripes is it's simplicity and
> easiness. Having worked with it the last 3 years with it, I've found it
> *way* easier than Spring MVC/Struts. I don't think of it as a replacement
> for all JSP-related stuff, but as a replacement of all the controller JSPs
> (./src/webdocs/*.jsp, which are 99% sriptlet). The big advantages here
> would be replacing JSP debugging with JUnit tests, having a more simple
> layer. Yes, that's doable with any modern framework, but with Stripes is so
> easy; I believe that it would greatly simplify the current model.
> However, looking at our current pace, carrying on with this migration would
> mean a lot of effort (time). Right now, I'd rather focus on other more
> community-growth oriented things, i.e., modularize current src, so it's
> easier to hop in. Seems that now it's not the time of switching to Stripes,
> and I don't know if we'll end switching (time + should be decided @dev),
> although I'd really like to. I think at least it's something
> worth-considering (a branch with a proof of concept on a 2.10 scope?).
> As for the LDAP + AD authentication, @Andrew any insights will be highly
> appreciated :-)
> regards,
> juan pablo
> On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 11:28 PM, Glen Mazza<glen.mazza@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> I'm inclined to agree with Ichiro here.  Perhaps it is too late in the
>> game for me to comment, but if--if!--JSPWiki is going to use a framework I
>> would recommend a very commonly used one like Struts 2 or Spring MVC, even
>> if there are smaller competitors that may, in fact, be better.  Part of the
>> allure of projects like JSPWiki is that it's web development that helps
>> strengthen skills that are easily translatable to the job. So in attracting
>> committers I think it would be good for the project to remain with the most
>> common in-demand tools that people are most likely to see out in the
>> marketplace.
>> Glen
>> On 12/11/2012 03:40 PM, Ichiro Furusato wrote:
>>> Hi Andrew,
>>> I know it's terribly unfashionable to say this, and I understand
>>> there has been a significant amount of work on 3.0 towards Stripes
>>> (and perhaps this is also somewhat of an academic argument), but
>>> I really much prefer the JSPs. No, there's no framework, no "real"
>>> MVC, and this likely goes against the current of thought, but
>>> frankly I consider the use of scriptlets a real benefit, not a
>>> problem.
>>> JSPWiki is not so complicated an application, and wikis are by
>>> nature a tinkerer's toy, that shoving everything up into a framework,
>>> adding in complicated features that make modifying the site more
>>> difficult, well, the move away from JSPs was one reason I was
>>> considering moving away from the JSPWiki platform.
>>> It is after all named *JSP*Wiki.  I happen to think that the
>>> combination of JSPs, with their easy-to-edit combination of HTML
>>> and Java code, as an ideal environment for customising wikis.
>>> Maybe we could rebrand this project as "retro" and it would gain
>>> enormous momentum.
>>> My 2 cents anyway...
>>> Ichiro
>>> On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Andrew Jaquith
>>> <andrew.r.jaquith@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>   From the vantage point of someone who is inactive with the project, but
>>>> also the principal author of the Stripes MVC integration:
>>>> - Stripes had several goals, chiefly to (1) refactor the JSP scriptlet
>>>> code
>>>> out of the JSPs and into proper JavaBeans ("ActionBeans" in Stripes
>>>> parlance)
>>>> - Simplify JSP markup and input validation (replace HTML form tags with
>>>> Stripes equivalents)
>>>> - Replace the "command pattern" extensions to WikiContext, introduced in
>>>> the 2.8 range, with something saner (the ActionBeans)
>>>> - Create a more solid back-end interface for managing JSON requests from
>>>> browsers
>>>> Almost all of the forms porting was done, plus or minus a few things. I
>>>> was
>>>> pretty happy with how it turned out. There is some wickedly clever JSON
>>>> processing in there (via the Interceptor classes) that was barely tapped;
>>>> it would have radically simplified a lot of Dirk's code. Yes, Stripes is
>>>> another framework, but it's pretty lightweight; and much, much lighter
>>>> than
>>>> Spring, for example. On the flip side, it's not in widespread use;
>>>> indeed,
>>>> Spring has pretty much steamrollered over most of the other JEE
>>>> frameworks,
>>>> even as lots of dev energy has left the Java world entirely.
>>>> One more thing about 3.0. I added in some pretty solid code for
>>>> integrating
>>>> with LDAP and AD for authentication, group access controls, etc. This
>>>> could
>>>> be re-used in the 2.9 codebase pretty easily, with a little light
>>>> refactoring.
>>>> Whether the team wishes to use the rest of 3.0 code (including Stripes)
>>>> is,
>>>> of course, up to the team. If I can be a resource/mentor, let me know.
>>>> Andrew
>>>> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 1:45 AM, Florian Holeczek <florian@holeczek.de
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>   Hi Ichiro,
>>>>> well, that's basically it - more than enough I'd say, since these two
>>>>> are
>>>>> really big points. You can have a look atwww.jspwiki.org, there are
>>>>> some
>>>>> pages on 3.0, too.
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>    Florian
>>>>> ----- Ursprüngliche Mail -----
>>>>> Von: "Ichiro Furusato"<ichiro.furusato@gmail.com>
>>>>> An:jspwiki-dev@incubator.apache.**org<jspwiki-dev@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 9. Dezember 2012 23:53:08
>>>>> Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] How to proceed with the 3.0 efforts
>>>>> For those of us who've not followed the 3.0 progress (or lack thereof),
>>>>> could
>>>>> someone provide a very brief synopsis?
>>>>> My understanding is that the 2.8.x branch is fully functional and
>>>>> basically an
>>>>> update of the com.ecyrd.jspwiki code in Apache packaging, and that the
>>>>> 3.0
>>>>> branch was an attempt to rewrite the backend using Janne's JSR-170
>>>>> subset,
>>>>> but that hasn't moved forward. I didn't know about any plans for
>>>>> Stripes.
>>>>> But
>>>>> this is all just a guess based on:
>>>>>       A new effort is started to graduate with a 2.9 codebase (based
>>>>> 2.8),
>>>>>       so no JCR backend and no Stripes, but the traditional JSPWiki,
>>>>>       progress can still be followed at our JIRA issue tracker.
>>>>> [I'm frankly happy with the "traditional" 2.8/2.9 code base as it's
>>>>> compatible with a substantial number of extant projects and plugins.
>>>>> I'd prefer JSPs over Stripes, or anything that adds complication.]
>>>>> If there's a web page describing the goals of 3.0, a reference would
>>>>> be good. The JIRA roadmap isn't that helpful.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Ichiro
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Florian Holeczek <florianh@apache.org
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> sooner or later we will have to decide on how to proceed with the
>>>>>> efforts (available in the JSPWIKI_3_0_BRANCH).
>>>>>> The discussion already started on a different thread (see below),
but I
>>>>>> think it's a good idea to explicitly continue it on a new thread.
>>>>>> @Harry: I fully agree with your mail cited below.
>>>>>> Though I wish it was different, I personally have little hope on
>>>>>> reviving
>>>>>> 3.0 without the help of Janne and Andrew, which seems unlikely at
>>>>> in
>>>>>> the medium term.
>>>>>> What do the others think, especially Janne and Andrew?
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>    Florian
>>>>>> -------- original message --------
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [jira] [Commented] (JSPWIKI-713) Creating a page doesn't
>>>>> work
>>>>>> on 3.0
>>>>>> Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 12:12:59 +0100
>>>>>> From: Harry Metske<harry.metske@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Reply to:jspwiki-dev@incubator.apache.**org<jspwiki-dev@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>>> To:jspwiki-dev@incubator.apache.**org<jspwiki-dev@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>>> Agree with that statement. But let's then decide what to do with
>>>>> stuff.
>>>>>> My main objection is that it is cluttering up our JIRA issue list,
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> is misleading people.
>>>>>> If anyone of us still has some hope on reviving 3.0 then I'm OK with
>>>>>> leaving things as they are at the moment.
>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>> Harry

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