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From Gil Tene <>
Subject Re: Coordinated Omission (CO) - possible strategies
Date Sat, 19 Oct 2013 00:10:17 GMT
[FYI - this is resent out of order due to a bounce. Some replies to this have already been

This is not a problem that matters only in HFT or financial trading. Coordinated Omission
is just as prevalent in making all your stats completely wrong in HTTP apps as it is in high
frequency apps. It is unfortunately universal.

On Oct 18, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Kirk Pepperdine <<>>

On 2013-10-18, at 7:43 PM, Gil Tene <<>>

I'm not saying the threading model doesn't have it's own issues, or that those issues could
not in themselves cause coordinated omission. I'm saying there is already a dominant, demonstrable,
and classic case of CO in JMeter that doesn't have anything to do with the threading model,
and will not go away no matter what is done to the threading model. As long as JMeter test
plans are expressed as describing instructions for serial, synchronous, do-these-one-after-the-other
scripts for what the tester should do for a given client, coordinated omission will easily
occur in executing those instructions. I believe that this will no go away without changing
how all JMeter test plans are expressed, and that is probably a non-starter. As a result,
I think that building in logic that will correct for coordinated omission when it inevitably
occurs, as opposed to trying to avoid it's occurrence, is the only way to go for JMeter.

I can't disagree with you in that CO is present in a single threaded test. However, the nature
of the type of load testing is that you play out a scenario because the results of the previous
request are needed for the current request. Under those conditions you can't do much but wait
until the back pressure clears or your initial request is retired. I think the best you can
do under these circumstances just as Sebb has suggested in that you flag the problem and move
on. I wouldn't fail nor omit the result but I'm not sure how you can correct because the back
pressure in this case will result in lower loads which will allow requests to retire at a
rate higher than one should normally expect.

The only "correct" way to deal with detected coordinated omission is to either correct for
it, or to throw away all latency or response time data acquired with it. "Flagging" it or
"moving on" and keeping the other data for analysis is the same as saying "This data is meaningless,
selective, and selectively represents only the best results the system demonstrated, while
specifically dropping the vast majority of actual indications of bad behavior encountered
during the test".

To be clear, I'm saying that all response time data, including average 90%'ile or any other,
that JMeter collects in the presence of coordinated omissions is completely wrong. They are
wrong because the data they are all based on is wrong. It's easily demonstrable to be off
by several orders of magnitude in real world situations, and in real world web applications.

That said, when users meet this type of system they will most likely abandon.. which is in
it's self a failure. JMeter doesn't have direct facilities to support this type of behaviour.

Failure, abandon, and backoff conditions are interesting commentary that does not replace
the need to include them in percentiles and averages. When someone says "my web application
exhibits a 99%'ile response time of 700msec" the recipient of this information doesn't hear
"99% of the the good results will be 700msec or less". They hear "99% of ALL requests attempted
with this system will respond within 700 msec of less.". That includes all requests that may
have resulted in users walking away in anger, or seeing long response times while the system
was stalled for some reason.

Coordinated Omission is a basic problem that can happen due to many, many different reasons
and causes. It is made up of two simple things: One is the Omission of some results or samples
from the final data set. Second is the Coordination of such omissions with other behavior,
such that it is not random. Random omission is usually not a problem. That's just sampling,
and random sampling works. Coordinated Omission is a problem because it is effectively [highly]
biased sampling. When Coordinated Omission occurs, the resulting data set is biased towards
certain behaviors (like good response times), leading ALL statistics on the resulting data
set to be highly suspect (read: "usually completely wrong and off by orders of magnitude")
in describing response time or latency behavior of the observed system.

In JMeter, Coordinated Omission occurs whenever a thread doesn't execute it's test plan as
planned, and does so in reaction to behavior it encounters. This is most often caused by the
simple and inherent synchronous nature of test plans as they are stated in JMeter: when a
specific request takes longer to respond that it would have taken the thread to send the next
request in the plan, the very fact that the thread did not send the next request out on time
as planned is a coordinated omission: It is the effective removal of a response time result
that would have been in the data set had the coordination not happened. It is "omission" since
a measurement that should have occurred didn't happen and was not recorded. It is "coordinated"
because the omission is not random, and is correlated-with/influenced-by the occurrence of
another longer than normal response time occurrence.

The work done with the OutlierCorrector in JMeter focused on detecting CO in streams of measured
results reported to listeners, and inserting "fake" results into the stream to represent the
missing, omitted results that should have been there. OutlierCorrector also has a log file
corrector that can fix JMeter logs offline, and after the fact by applying the same logic.

Right, but this is for a fixed transactional rate which is typically seen in machine to machine
HFTS. In Web apps, perhaps the most common use case for JMeter, client back-off due to back
pressure is a common behaviour and it's one that doesn't harm the testing process in the sense
that if the server can't retire transactions fast enough.. JMeter will expose it. if you want
to prove 5 9's, then I agree, you've got a problem.

Actually the corrector adjusts to the current transactional rare with a configurable moving
window average.

Fixed transactional rates are no more common in HFTS that they are in web applications, and
client backoff is just as common there. But this has nothing to do with HFTS. In all systems
with synchronous clients, whether they take 20usec or 2 seconds for a typical response, the
characterization and description of response time behavior should have nothing to do with
backing off. And in both types of systems, once backoff happens, coordinated omission has
kicked in and your data is contaminated.

As a trivial hypothetical, imagine a web system that regularly stalls for 3 consecutive seconds
out of every 40 seconds of operation under a regular load of 200 requests per second, but
responds promptly in 20 msec or less the rest of the time. This scenario can easily found
in the real world for GC pauses under high load for untuned systems. The 95%'ile response
time of such a system clearly can't be described as lower than 2 seconds without outright
lying. But here is what JMeter will report for such a systems:

- For 2 threads running 100 requests per second each: 95%'ile will show 20msec.
- For 20 threads running 10 requests per second each:  95%'ile will show 20msec.
- For 200 threads running 1 requests per second each: 95%'ile will show 20 msec.
- For 400 threads running 1 request every 2 seconds: 95%'ile will show 20 msec.
- For 2000 threads running 1 request every 10 seconds: 95%'ile will show ~1 seconds.

Clearly there is a configuration for JMeter that would expose this behavior, it's the one
where the gap between requests any one client would send is higher than the largest pause
the system ever exhibits. It is also the only one in the list that does not exhibit coordinated
omission. But what if the real world for this system simply involved 200 interactive clients,
that actually hit it with a request once every 1 second or so (think simple web based games)?
JMeter's test plans for that actual real world scenario would show a 9%'ile response time
results that is 100x off from reality.

And yes, in this world the real users playing this game would probably "back off". Or they
may do the reverse (click repeatedly in frustration, getting a response after 3 seconds).
Neither behavior would improve the 95%ile behavior or excuse a 100x off report.

It's not that I disagree with you or I don't understand what you're saying, it's just that
I'm having difficulty mapping it back to the world that people on this list have to deal with.
w.r.t, I've a feeling that our views are some what tainted by the worlds we live in. In the
HTTP world, CO exists and I accept it as natural behaviour. In your world CO exists but it
cannot be accepted.

Just because I also dabble in High frequency trading systems and 10 usec responses doesn't
mean I forgot about large and small scale web applications with real people at the end, and
with human response times.

My world covers many more HTTP people than it does HFT people. Many people's first reaction
to realizing how badly Coordinated Omission affects the accuracy of reported response times
is "this applies to someone else's domain, but mine things are  still ok because of X". Unfortunately,
the problem is almost universal in synchronous testers and in synchronous internal monitoring
systems, and 95%+ ( ;-) ) of Web testing environments I have encountered have dramatically
under-reported 95%, 99%, and all other %'iles. Unless those systems actually don't care about
5% failure rates, their business decisions are currently being based on bad data.

The problem is that mechanical sympathy is mostly about your world. I think there is a commonality
between the two worlds but I think to find it we need more discussion. I'm not sure that this
list is good for this purpose so I'm going to flip back to mechanical sympathy instead of
hijacking this mailing list.

-- Kirk

-- Gil.

On Oct 18, 2013, at 9:54 AM, Kirk Pepperdine <<>>

Hi Gil,

I would have to disagree as in this case I believe there is CO due to the threading model,
CO on a per-thread basis as well as plain old omission. I believe these conditions are in
addition to the conditions you're pointing to.

You may test at a fixed rate for HFT but in most worlds, random is necessary. Unfortunately
that makes the problem more difficult to deal with.


On 2013-10-18, at 5:32 PM, Gil Tene <<>>

I don't think the thread model is the core of the Coordinated Omission problem. Unless we
consider the only solution to be sending no more than one request per 20 minutes from any
given thread a threading model fix. It's more of a configuration choice the way I see it,
but a pretty impossible one. The thread model may need work for other reasons, but CO is not
one of them.

In JMeter, as with all other synchronous testers, Coordinated Omission is a per-thread issue.
It's easy to demonstrate CO with JMeter with a single client thread testing an application
that has only a single client connection in the real world, or with 15 client threads testing
an application that has exactly 15 real-world clients communicating at high rates (common
with muxed environments, messaging, ESBs, trading systems, etc.). No amount of threading or
concurrency will help get a better test results capturing for these very real system. Any
occurrence of CO will make the JMeter results seriously bogus.

When any one thread misses a planned request sending time, CO has already occurred, and there
is no way to avoid it at that point. You certainly detect that CO has happened. The question
is what to do about it in JMeter once you detect it. The major options are:

1. Ignore it and keep working with the data as if it actually meant anything. This amount
to .

2. You can try to change the tester behavior to avoid CO going forward. E.g. you can try to
adjust the number of threads up AND at the same time the frequency of requests that each thread
sends requests at, which will amount to drastically changing the test plan in reaction to
system behavior. In my opinion, changing behavior dynamically will have very limited effectiveness
for two reasons: The first is that the problem had already occurred, so all the data up to
and including the observed CO  is already bogus and has to be thrown away unless it can be
corrected somehow. Only after you auto-adjust enough times to not see CO for a long time,
your results during that time may be valid. The second is that changing the test scenario
is valid (and possible) for very few real world systems.

3. You can try to correct for CO when you observe it. There are various ways this can be done,
and most of them will amount to re-creating missing test sample results by projecting from
past results. This can help correct the results data set so that it would better approximate
what a tester that was not synchronous, and would have kept issuing requests per the actual
test plan, would have experienced in the test.

4. Something else we hadn't yet thought about.

Some correction and detection example work can be found at:
, which uses code at . Michael Chmiel
worked at Azul Systems over the summer on this problem, and the OutlierCorrector package and
the small patch to JMeter  (under the docs-2.9 branch) are some of the results of that work.
This fix approach appears to work well as long as no explicitly random behavior is stated
in the test scenarios (the outlier detector detects a test pattern and repeats it in repairing
the data. Expressly random scenarios will not exhibit a detectable pattern.).

-- Gil.

On Oct 17, 2013, at 11:47 PM, Kirk Pepperdine <<>>

Hi Sebb,

In my testing, the option off creating threads on demand instead of all at once has made a
huge difference in my being able to control rate of arrivals on the server. It has convinced
me that simply using the throughput controller isn't enough and that the threading model in
JMeter *must* change. It is the threading model that is the biggest source of CO in JMeter.
Unfortunately we weren't able to come to some way of a non-disruptive change in JMeter to
make this happen.

The model I was proposing would have JMeter generate an event heap sorted by the time when
a sampler should be fired. A thread pool should be used to eat off of the heap and fire the
events as per scheduled. This would allow JMeter to break the inappropriate relationship of
a thread being a user. The solution is not perfect in that you will still have to fight with
thread schedulers and hypervisors to get things to happen on queue. However, I believe the
end result will be a far more scalable product that will require far fewer threads to produce
far higher loads on the server.

As for your idea on the using the throughput controller. IHMO triggering an assert only worsens
the CO problem. In fact, if the response times from the timeouts are not added into the results,
in other words they are omitted from the data set, you've only made the problem worse as you
are filter out bad data points from the result sets making the results better than they should
be. Peter Lawyer's (included here for the purpose of this discussion) technique for correcting
CO is to simply recognize when the event should have been triggered and then start the timer
for that event at that time. So the latency reported will include the time before event triggering.

Gil Tene's done some work with JMeter. I'll leave it up to him to post what he's done. The
interesting bit that he's created is HrdHistogram (
It is not only a better way to report results,it offers techniques to calculate and correct
for CO. Also Gil might be able to point you to a more recent version of his on CO talk. It
might be nice to have a new sampler that incorporates this work.

On a side note, I've got a Servlet filter that is JMX component that measures a bunch of stats
from the servers POV. It's something that could be contributed as it could be used to help
understand the source of CO.. if not just complement JMeter's view of latency.


On 2013-10-18, at 12:27 AM, sebb <<>> wrote:

It looks to be quite difficult to avoid the issue of Coordination
Omission without a major redesign of JMeter.

However, it may be a lot easier to detect when the condition has occurred.
This would potentially allow the test settings to be changed to reduce
or eliminate the occurrences - e.g. by increasing the number of
threads or spreading the load across more JMeter instances.

The Constant Throughput Controller calculates the desired wait time,
and if this is less than zero - i.e. a sample should already have been
generated - it could trigger the creation of a failed Assertion
showing the time difference.

Would this be sufficient to detect all CO occurrences?
If not, what other metric needs to be checked?

Even if it is not the only possible cause, would it be useful as a
starting point?

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