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From Philippe Mouawad <philippe.moua...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Add an icon form Templates in toolbar
Date Tue, 09 Sep 2014 20:58:10 GMT
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 1:55 PM, sebb <sebbaz@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9 September 2014 12:32, Philippe Mouawad <philippe.mouawad@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 1:23 PM, sebb <sebbaz@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 9 September 2014 09:00, Andrey Pohilko <apc4@ya.ru> wrote:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > My opinion on the cached sample handling:
> >> >
> >> > 1. Not returning sample is wrong. Once user has Sampler he expects
> >> > sample to be generated in that place. Without a sample we will have
> >> > questions "what's happening" from users. If we look into Firebug or
> >> > Developer Tools, we'll see that there are "samples' for cached
> content,
> >> > having "from cache" as size qualifier.
> >> > 2. Response code 204 is also wrong, it means different situation in
> RFC.
> >> > The response code should be one from cached response. I suppose server
> >> > can set caching headers for any of 2xx coded responses and client
> should
> >> > respect that.
> >> >
> >> > I would suggest following:
> >> >     a) return the code that were present in original cached response.
> >> > and the response message also
> >> >     b) in case of cached response add " (cached)" string to response
> >> > message. Response message string is not defined as required by RFC and
> >> > may contain any string in it, it is 100% informational. For example,
> >> > original sample "200 OK" will look as "200 OK (cached)"
> >> >     c) enable this by default, no property needed since the behavior
> is
> >> > unambiguous
> >>
> >> It's a bit harder to detect the sample, which is why I was thinking
> >> about defining a specific non-HTTP return code.
> >> This could be done using a property to override the 200 code.
> >>
> >> Also JMeter does not cache the content, so the sample won't have any
> data.
> >> Post-Processors may need to be aware of this.
> >> Though given that 204 status is also success, and was not excluded
> >> previously, perhaps this is not an issue.
> >>
> >
> > Not removing the sampleresults means erroneously impacting positively
> > response time no ?
>
> Depends on how the response times are calculated.
>
> > Also regarding Andrei note on difference between browser showing 200
> > (cache) vs JMeter not showing it,for me main JMeter job is simulate
> > load on server and traffic between Browser and Server, so it should not
> > report anything for Browser internal traffic.
>
> I don't think there is an ideal solution to this.
> Some people will want to see all the samples executed by JMeter, and
> some will need to see only the external requests.
>
> There are probably at least 3 approaches:
> 1) return null sample (i.e. no sample)
> 2) return sample with status 200 and message containing "(ex cache)" or
> similar
> 3) return sample with a different status, chosen by the user
>

Ok let's implement it then, would it be active through property ?
What would be the default ?


> > Regarding caching the content, the impact on JMeter memory would be
> huge, I
> > doubt it scales fine.
>
> Does not have to be purely a memory cache; it could be disk-based (as
> most browsers use)
>
I think it would be IO overkill in this case. But why not some day

>
> >
> >> > Andrey Pokhilko
> >> >
> >> > On 09.09.2014 00:41, sebb wrote:
> >> >> On 8 September 2014 21:21, Philippe Mouawad <
> philippe.mouawad@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 10:08 PM, sebb <sebbaz@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On 8 September 2014 11:56, Philippe Mouawad <
> >> philippe.mouawad@gmail.com>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:33 PM, sebb <sebbaz@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On 7 September 2014 19:49, Philippe Mouawad <
> >> philippe.mouawad@gmail.com
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 2:33 PM, sebb <sebbaz@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> On 6 September 2014 22:44, Philippe Mouawad
<
> >> >>>> philippe.mouawad@gmail.com
> >> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>> Hello All,
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> We could make a poll with 3 items:
> >> >>>>>>>> [This should have been a new thread, and all
these should be
> >> separate
> >> >>>>>>>> user threads]
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> 1) Ask  Early users to test and give feedback
on Undo/Redo
> >> feature
> >> >>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>> nightly build
> >> >>>>>>>> +1
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Let me just finish the Toolbar enabling/disabling
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> 2) Make a poll on the "Template" icon ?
I agree with you and I
> >> >>>> think
> >> >>>>>> sebb
> >> >>>>>>>>> had raised this when initially icon was
a wizard. My concern
> is
> >> >>>> that
> >> >>>>>>>>> current icon may not be clear or "known"
in other
> applications,
> >> so
> >> >>>> I
> >> >>>>>>>> wonder
> >> >>>>>>>>> if new user or even usual user have the
idea of using it
> >> >>>>>>>> Perhaps see if we could use the Templates icon
from OpenOffice?
> >> >>>>>>>> This looks like a piece of paper with a star
in the top left
> >> corner.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Here's a screenshot:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> http://people.apache.org/~sebb/JMeter/Templates.png
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Nice one
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> I don't think we necessarily need a poll on
this, so long as we
> >> all
> >> >>>>>>>> agree that the new icon is better.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> 3) Make a poll (As sebb proposed in another
thread) on the
> need
> >> to
> >> >>>>>> add a
> >> >>>>>>>>> user property for bugzilla 54778, to allow
users to revert to
> <
> >> >>>> 2.12
> >> >>>>>>>>> behaviour. My opinion based on previous
versions behaviour is
> >> that
> >> >>>> we
> >> >>>>>>>>> should introduce this , asking community
may be confusing
> >> >>>>>>>> If they are confused by the choice, won't they
be confused by
> the
> >> >>>>>>>> change in behaviour?
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> It will depend on how the information is presented.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> What about this:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> When using Cache Manager in JMeter. If a resource
is found in
> cache
> >> >>>> then:
> >> >>>>>>> - Up to version 2.11, no request hits the server
and a 204
> response
> >> >>>> code
> >> >>>>>>> with empty content was returned as a SampleResult
> >> >>>>>>> - Starting from 2.12, no request hits the server,
but no more
> >> >>>>>> SampleResult
> >> >>>>>>> will be created (this is inline with what browser
do)
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> This change will affect:
> >> >>>>>>> - the number of Samples in results
> >> >>>>>>> - the average, median response time reported
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> We propose 2 options to handle this:
> >> >>>>>>> (1) Add the possibility through a JMeter property
to revert back
> >> to <=
> >> >>>>>> 2.11
> >> >>>>>>> behaviour
> >> >>>>>>> (2) No JMeter property to revert back to <=
2.11 behaviour
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Please vote depending on what would be better for
you.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Or maybe we could use a doodle ?
> >> >>>>>> On reflection, I agree that providing a property to
select the
> >> >>>>>> behaviour is the obvious thing to do.
> >> >>>>>> Adding the property does not need a vote.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Ok
> >> >>>>>> However, I'm not sure we should change the default.
> >> >>>>>> There have been no external bug reports, so presumably
users are
> not
> >> >>>>>> unhappy with the current behaviour.
> >> >>>>>> Or perhaps hardly anyone uses the Cache Manager.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> No clearly there has been reports but not on mailing list.
> >> >>>> It would help to link to these on the Bug report.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> As far as I remember I opened this bug after a twitter
discussion:
> >> >>>>> https://twitter.com/Scooletz/status/317252989003915264
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> And see this:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17694151/jmeter-response-code-204-and-cant-get-content
> >> >>>>> https://flood.io/blog/18-understanding-the-jmeter-cache
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/jmeter-dev/201303.mbox/%3CCAH9fUpYXZ8+jXZP48L37yXA_vXnToQ4ghMHibG6kOpFOFe-Zag@mail.gmail.com%3E
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> This suggests returning a sample with a different status, rather
> than
> >> >>>> no sample at all.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> You mean the last one ?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>> So for me returning 204 is clearly a bug that must be fixed.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Also, I wonder whether the fix for the bug report is
the only
> >> possible
> >> >>>> one.
> >> >>>>>> It seems odd to drop the sample result entirely.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> For me dropping sample is fine as in this case , a browser
would
> >> lookup
> >> >>>>> cache and not hit server and not return 204.
> >> >>>>> 204 is a particular code that does not meet this case.
> >> >>>> Perhaps, but JMeter is not a browser, and anyway a browser
would
> >> >>>> return the cache entry.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> Yes but it would not return 204. 204 is a code that means server
> >> returned
> >> >>> an empty response , but server was hit so clearly wrong in this
> case.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Not returning a sample is not necessarily the correct thing
to do.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> Why ? for me it means no request occured which is what happens
for
> the
> >> >>> browser and on client <=> server dialog (which jmeter mimics)
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> There is no unique HTTP status that corresponds to a local
cache
> hit.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> Yes because in this case , HTTP is not involved as no Request occurs
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> I assume that it was decided to use 204 as being the closest.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> JMeter is not a browser; it is primarily intended for testing
> servers.
> >> >>>> So I think what is important here is to generate results that
can
> be
> >> >>>> analysed to show the appropriate performance figures.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> Not returning any sample when cache is hit is the right option
for
> me
> >> for
> >> >>> the reason I described above.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> If you are only interested in the samples that hit the server,
> then I
> >> >>>> agree that cached responses can be ignored.
> >> >>>> But if one is interested in the client load that the server
can
> >> >>>> support, it would be useful to be able to record cache hits.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> Yes this could be useful.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> An alternative would be to return 200 (cache) for a local cache
> hit.
> >> >>>> Though this is not ideal given that JMeter does not currently
cache
> >> the
> >> >>>> content.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Maybe JMeter could return a currently unused status?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Suppose JMeter were enhanced to cache the response content.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> You mean https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=53540
?
> >> >> Not really.
> >> >> That issue is a consequence of not caching the content, not actually
> >> >> an enhancement request to add such caching.
> >> >> Indeed one solution was to cache just the embedded resource URLs,
> >> >> which is quite different.
> >> >>
> >> >>>> What status should it return? How would one distinguish it
from an
> >> >>>> actual server request?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Could you give more details on this through an example ?
> >> >> Seems too obvious to need explaining, but here goes:
> >> >>
> >> >> Assume JMeter has been enhanced to cache the full content of a URL.
> >> >> Request a URL.
> >> >> Assume it is cached.
> >> >> Request the same URL, assume the cache entry has not expired.
> >> >> JMeter can then return the entire contents, exactly as it did
> >> originally.
> >> >>
> >> >> If it returns 200, how can one tell from the response whether it was
> >> >> served from cache or from the server?
> >> >> Note that a server request can have an elapsed time of zero if the
> >> >> server is faster than the clock granularity
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Regards
> >> >>>>>>>>> Philippe
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Milamber
<
> >> milamberspace@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Le 31/08/2014 13:22, Philippe Mouawad
a ecrit :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if the current icon for
Templates is the right one.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> The first icon which was a kind
of wizard seems to me maybe
> a
> >> >>>>>> better
> >> >>>>>>>>>> option
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> even if it's not really a wizard.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> The current icon is kind of "unknown"
in the mind of users I
> >> >>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>> which
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> does not encourage its usage.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts ?
> >> >>>>>>>>>> No problem for me for change icon,
but the Wizard icon seems
> >> >>>>>> introduce
> >> >>>>>>>>>> some confusion to the users (the template
box is just 1 box,
> not
> >> >>>>>> several
> >> >>>>>>>>>> steps to construct a test plan like
a "wizard" in a
> software).
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps ask on user mailing list (make
a poll to choice the
> best
> >> >>>>>> icon?)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Philippe
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:52 AM,
Milamber <
> >> milamber@apache.org
> >> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Le 13/07/2013 22:15, sebb a
ecrit :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>  On 13 July 2013 22:32, Milamber
<milamber@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Le 13/07/2013 20:58,
sebb a ecrit :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1, but I think
it should be after Open;
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, I prefer
the template icon after New icon.
> It's
> >> >>>> more
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> user-friendly in my
mind. New=>New test plan from
> scratch,
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Template=>New
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> test(or merge) to help
end / beginner user, Open=>Open a
> >> test
> >> >>>>>> plan
> >> >>>>>>>>>> that I
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> create (I'm pass the
first steps to use JMeter).
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Unless there are plenty
of templates for the user, they
> >> will
> >> >>>>>>>> likely
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore the Template button
very quickly..
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Template behavior is a
new functionality of JMeter, I
> >> can't
> >> >>>>>> know
> >> >>>>>>>> if
> >> >>>>>>>>>> we
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> will have a plenty of templates
(I hope this).
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I would like commit with "New|Template|Open"
in toolbar.
> If in
> >> >>>>>>>> future,
> >> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> users brings some misunderstand
on this order/toolbar, we
> can
> >> >>>>>> change
> >> >>>>>>>>>> easily
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the order.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Milamber
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>  and we need to drop the
New
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> icon (Bug 55258)
- so it will still be second.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 July 2013
19:37, Philippe Mouawad <
> >> >>>>>>>> philippe.mouawad@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 for app
office
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday,
July 13, 2013, Milamber wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Le 13/07/2013
16:29, sebb a ecrit :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  On 13
July 2013 17:05, Milamber <milamber@apache.org
> >
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Le
12/07/2013 14:10, sebb a ecrit :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
   On 12 July 2013 09:07, Milamber <
> >> milamber@apache.org
> >> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hello,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I thinks the new ability of Templates can have a
> >> >>>>>> dedicated
> >> >>>>>>>>>> button
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Toolbar.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 Agreed.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
   I saw the Open Icon Library [1] to find a icon
> to
> >> >>>> this
> >> >>>>>>>> action
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
(with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
license
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
CC-BT-SA 3.0).
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 CC-BY-SA
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
   I found two icons (the same but with two
> different
> >> >>>>>>>> colors),
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
which
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
is a
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
magic
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
wand. In the sense of "magician".
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 Not sure the Template system is anything like a
> >> >>>> Wizard
> >> >>>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
normal
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
computing sense.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think it's misleading to use a wand here.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Basically it's a selection from a list.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 I've update with other icon (CC-BY-SA) :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.milamberspace.net/**toolbar-template/<
> >> >>>>>> http://www.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
milamberspace.net/toolbar-template/>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The open icon library provide great icons, but it's
> >> very
> >> >>>>>>>>>> difficult
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
to
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
find a
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
good icon with the good license for the "templates"
> >> >>>>>> bahavior.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 Yes, indeed.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What
about one of the following?
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://openiconlibrary.**
> sourceforge.net/gallery2/?./**
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Icons/categories/applications-**office.png<http://
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> openiconlibrary.sourceforge.net/gallery2/?./Icons/
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> categories/applications-office.png>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://openiconlibrary.**
> sourceforge.net/gallery2/?./**
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Icons/actions/archive-insert-**3.png<
> >> >>>> http://openiconlibrary
> >> >>>>>> .
> >> >>>>>> sourceforge.net/gallery2/?./Icons/actions/archive-insert-3.png
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://openiconlibrary.**
> sourceforge.net/gallery2/?./**
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Icons/actions/document-import-**2.pngve<http://
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>> openiconlibrary.sourceforge.net/gallery2/?./Icons/actions/
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> document-import-2.pngve>update
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  I've
update the page:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.milamberspace.net/**toolbar-template/<
> >> >>>> http://www.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> milamberspace.net/toolbar-template/>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The application-office
icon seems very good ? +1 for
> me
> >> at
> >> >>>>>> this
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> position.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     You
can see the render here and 2 proposal of
> >> >>>> position in
> >> >>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
toolbar:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.milamberspace.net/**toolbar-template/<
> >> >>>>>> http://www
> >> >>>>>>>> .
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
milamberspace.net/toolbar-template/>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
   I think any icon belongs either just before or
> >> just
> >> >>>>>> after
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Open",
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
i.e.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
New, Template, Open
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
or
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
New, Open, Template
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It does not seem logical to have it between Save
> >> >>>> Selection
> >> >>>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Cut.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
   What is your opinion? need to find a new icon?
> the
> >> >>>> best
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
position/color?
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Milamber
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[1]
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://openiconlibrary.**
> >> sourceforge.net/gallery2/?./
> >> >>>>>>>> <http:/
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
/openiconlibrary.sourceforge.net/gallery2/?./>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 --
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Philippe Mouawad.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>> Cordialement.
> >> >>>>>>>>> Philippe Mouawad.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>> Cordialement.
> >> >>>>>>> Philippe Mouawad.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> --
> >> >>>>> Cordialement.
> >> >>>>> Philippe Mouawad.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Cordialement.
> >> >>> Philippe Mouawad.
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cordialement.
> > Philippe Mouawad.
>



-- 
Cordialement.
Philippe Mouawad.

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