From users-return-19549-archive-asf-public=cust-asf.ponee.io@jena.apache.org Wed Mar 13 10:04:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Delivered-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by mx-eu-01.ponee.io (Postfix) with SMTP id 87F8518064A for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 11:04:01 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 67288 invoked by uid 500); 13 Mar 2019 10:04:00 -0000 Mailing-List: contact users-help@jena.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: users@jena.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list users@jena.apache.org Received: (qmail 67276 invoked by uid 99); 13 Mar 2019 10:03:59 -0000 Received: from pnap-us-west-generic-nat.apache.org (HELO spamd1-us-west.apache.org) (209.188.14.142) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 10:03:59 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spamd1-us-west.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at spamd1-us-west.apache.org) with ESMTP id 3C629C9C15 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 10:03:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at spamd1-us-west.apache.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, KAM_SHORT=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=disabled Authentication-Results: spamd1-us-west.apache.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mx1-lw-us.apache.org ([10.40.0.8]) by localhost (spamd1-us-west.apache.org [10.40.0.7]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kZXAKCr0q4AB for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 10:03:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ot1-f65.google.com (mail-ot1-f65.google.com [209.85.210.65]) by mx1-lw-us.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mx1-lw-us.apache.org) with ESMTPS id C298C5F10F for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 10:03:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ot1-f65.google.com with SMTP id b3so1180468otp.4 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 03:03:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=yn9+AMwwrfaoh7F8XOkD2rbvL/tfAMVlu7X0sizLl3w=; b=IxMb1l7VNfXUIjZqClzf1B7ypcu9+qWxtzrudCwM/wbd0j/W7ONv5qDeszQ1gLOKmc gE2tAsvI/K/UwE19XncFsi5+0qUtJNcdHRvcws5j3obAp+kkQlEQwQG4/ajw0itByrmv prcpHU1L+RG9CPJpNGAHpKGiNFnrQL0cDgax9eC4ClRVLIPjXww3TKfigoMmn8juoYI0 7W3vY/gXfAzEI4njLGtA92QoHGGXdqcmzHcAxcY1pel3mJNBhSdiw+qi5gQj34vkWFaD dFyZ7p58DMsG0ApwU90uUd+zWcrf2yAZUD0zT0g0aAAJlGioXj6jRWAvyaFfaqfKEIXL uS1A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yn9+AMwwrfaoh7F8XOkD2rbvL/tfAMVlu7X0sizLl3w=; b=iiFfMuewb+xv1tDkbSrEixXgDy9eMtMDLSgv8Y1mxcyF6Tahlp00FGPTPe5EidVf/D w4WlWQfLfLFKKYo+gTawJ47ExtIwgWuuFTI6dGbfC0tQapCwItK+zcEc85U5pp0ouYN3 P9k5hX4kJifUaxgP0CqOcLlh3F+ZnZN8cO1gjsSOycGqx4zj5PrTbVErEOckdf4ARR/T vpoS1KnIpVMVch2XaAY5Ams17dUbrnITO80CwW7Nuo9SN2S+afdXK/QZwunZtpppyd/5 FVU76eGNXFN4oxi6HdsU8qmci6eBv7D74GhIQy0y0wpjHWBsbr+ZokwUcOLkTZp3A//G V+Qw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU3JP1ujYvgxRlBApzn+OR8cZWyvPnpdXqHygt0yzgCa0Aghyzn mKPYTjfBzsgXNTbwrPh53WBo9n9lW3fLvqVZymeTio0CCcE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyg119oiVoH05i9Znryxp8Qd3Lp7ozL73g06abzegIBUX0ZdU4uktY1PD39EDGbykoh1EvuYI17NoudxjbLbac= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7482:: with SMTP id t2mr18587526otk.180.1552471434295; Wed, 13 Mar 2019 03:03:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <62AA196F-3ECB-466C-8C33-4796F38EBC09@apache.org> <8d45caf5-aa77-b484-a2b9-e1e76bb438b5@gmail.com> <19f7f5e1-4480-1325-78f3-ac2c71e5f7f7@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> In-Reply-To: <19f7f5e1-4480-1325-78f3-ac2c71e5f7f7@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> From: Marco Neumann Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 10:03:44 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [GenericRuleReasoner] inner workings To: users@jena.apache.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for the attempt to further clarify Adrians "contribution" here Lorenz. I did send a reply unintentionally directly to Adrian yesterday omitting the list. So here I go again: Thank You Adrian, I was thinking more along the lines of an updated version of a list for Jena like https://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/List_of_Rule_Systems or https://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Category:Rule_Reasoner over the years they seem to have constantly ignored you and IBL in the reports. wonder why ... is it a hosted system only? On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 8:39 AM Lorenz B. wrote: > > I don't see how this link to some code example to some whatever online > service answers his question...can you explain this please a bit more? > > I mean, if I understood correctly, Marco was asking for some rule engine > that can be combined with Apache Jena. So, I'd expect something like > Drools engine with a Jena adapter or the like. And ideally I guess a > standalone, open source, free to use tool. > > I read through your research paper but couldn't figure out what the > underlying rule engine is based on nor could I see any benchmarks w.r.t. > performance. > Moreover, the code just indicates to use some online service - so a user > has to register and, as far as I can see, has to pay US $100 per month. > And you need the data as SQL database? Or can it process RDF directly? > > Sorry for my questions, it's just because I've never heard about this > tool before. And I'm a bit confused how it works on RDF data. > > > > Marco, > > > > This might be of interest: > > > > www.executable-english.com/iblClient1.java > > > > HTH, -- Adrian > > > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 3:18 PM Marco Neumann > > wrote: > > > >> so what's your current recommendation for a superior third party rules > >> reasoner that works efficiently with the jena tooling? free & commerci= al > >> option welcome > >> > >> Marco > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon 14. Jan 2019 at 19:16, Dave Reynolds > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Barry, > >>> > >>> [Agreed that dev is probably the better place to discuss this.] > >>> > >>> The two engines in jena are indeed loosely styled on RETE and on tabl= ed > >>> datalog. However, I wouldn't claim they were particularly complete or > >>> good implementations of either. So while looking at some of the sourc= e > >>> literature that inspired them might be helpful don't expect very much= of > >>> what's covered in the literature to be present in the code. > >>> > >>> For RETE then the wikipedia article [1] is a good summary and source = of > >>> starting references. I had a copy of the original Forgy paper [1](ref > >>> 1), among others,when I was doing the work. There has been a *lot* of > >>> work on improvements to RETE since the 80s and while there were times > >>> when we might have done a new forward engine using more modern > >>> techniques it never happened. > >>> > >>> For the backward engine the approach is a variant of SLG-WAM as used = for > >>> XSB but highly highly simplified since we can't express general tuple= s > >>> or recursive data structures within jena's triples. A few google > >>> searches haven't turned up the exact paper that originally inspired t= he > >>> approach. The closest I've found are [2] and [3], which probably cove= r > >>> the same ground. > >>> > >>> Let me reinforce that the Jena engines are really simplified. They we= re > >>> enough to get the job done at the time (over a decade ago now) and ha= ve > >>> proved useful for some people since but I wouldn't want to defend any= of > >>> the implementation choices. > >>> > >>> Dave > >>> > >>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rete_algorithm > >>> [2] > >>> > >>> > >> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2078/96964ee85f983cd861a4f8c5dff0bfc9= f03e.pdf > >>> [3] > >>> > >>> > >> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6c6d/26e8fe1b755140ffcb57025b021a046b= 2a3b.pdf > >>> On 14/01/2019 16:33, ajs6f wrote: > >>>> I have no useful general information about the reasoning framework, = but > >>> I am copying this over to dev@. Discussions of how to extend Jena > >>> definitely have a place there. > >>>> ajs6f > >>>> > >>>>> On Jan 14, 2019, at 6:40 AM, Nouwt, B. (Barry) > >>> wrote: > >>>>> Hi all, I want to investigate the inner workings of the > >>> GenericRuleReasoner (with the purpose of extending it in the future).= In > >>> Jena's documentation I read: > >>>>> "Jena includes a general purpose rule-based reasoner which is used = to > >>> implement both the RDFS and OWL reasoners but is also available for > >> general > >>> use. This reasoner supports rule-based inference over RDF graphs and > >>> provides forward chaining, backward chaining and a hybrid execution > >> model. > >>> To be more exact, there are two internal rule engines one forward > >> chaining > >>> RETE engine and one tabled datalog engine - they can be run separatel= y or > >>> the forward engine can be used to prime the backward engine which in = turn > >>> will be used to answer queries." > >>>>> source: https://jena.apache.org/documentation/inference/#rules > >>>>> > >>>>> Apart from Jena's documentation, Jena's mailing lists and its sourc= e > >>> code, are there any resources that can better help me grasp what is > >>> happening inside the generic rule reasoner? For example, the text abo= ve > >>> mentions the forward chaining RETE engine and the tabled datalog engi= ne, > >>> are there any scientific papers that I might read to better understan= d > >>> their inner workings? > >>>>> Maybe this question is better suited for the dev@jena.apache.org > >>> ? > >>>>> Regards, Barry > >>>>> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. = If > >>> you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mista= ke, > >>> you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO > >> accepts > >>> no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which = you > >>> use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent t= o > >> the > >>> electronic transmission of messages. > >> -- > >> > >> > >> --- > >> Marco Neumann > >> KONA > >> > -- > Lorenz B=C3=BChmann > AKSW group, University of Leipzig > Group: http://aksw.org - semantic web research center > --=20 --- Marco Neumann KONA