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Subject cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/pmc 01-04-22-meeting-irclog.xml
Date Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:42:01 GMT
jon         01/04/26 12:42:00

  Added:       docs/site/pmc 01-04-22-meeting-irclog.html
               xdocs/site/pmc 01-04-22-meeting-irclog.xml
  Log:
  irc log meeting notes
  
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            <a name="04-22-01 IRC Log from PMC Meeting"><strong>04-22-01 IRC Log from PMC Meeting</strong></a>
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          <blockquote>
                                      <p>
  Below is the IRC log from the meeting on 04-22-01 held over IRC.
  </p>
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        <td bgcolor="#023264" width="1" height="1"><img src="/images/void.gif" width="1" height="1" vspace="0" hspace="0" border="0"/></td>
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        <td bgcolor="#ffffff"><pre>
  1:59:01 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; jon: log running?
  1:59:20 PM:  &lt;jon&gt; of course.
  1:59:43 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; I thought it was soccer... The goal is a lot bigger.
  1:59:49 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; Room for a server farm.
  1:59:55 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; We'll see if we get as many people as last year.
  2:00:13 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; ceki: it is roller hockey.  Game is in 2.5 hours.
  2:00:27 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; s/year/week/
  2:00:50 PM: *** dlh (+dianeh@shell.tsoft.com) joined #jakarta
  2:00:59 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Hi diane!
  2:01:06 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; sam: anything else?
  2:01:18 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; Hideeho -- did I miss it?
  2:01:34 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; ceki: proposal for cvs layout &amp; build procedures
  2:01:47 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; Ah!
  2:01:51 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; diane: not started yet.  Ceki has to leave early.
  2:02:18 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; Oh good -- for a minute there I thought maybe we
  were doing the off-by-one thing again :)
  2:02:22 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; The directory layout of a project is very closely
  related to
  2:02:33 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; it's build script.
  2:02:59 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; The dirlayout document will need a lot of work toget right.
  2:03:17 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; You input is very much needed.
  2:03:48 PM: *** Pete (+Pete@d354-ps0-mel.alphalink.com.au) joined #jakarta
  2:03:52 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; hiho
  2:03:57 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; The binary CVS discussion did not lead to a
  white/black conclusion.
  2:04:07 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; Hi Pete! Good morning...
  2:04:12 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; morning ;)
  2:04:24 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; we started yet - or is time for a tea run?
  2:04:27 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; good morning!
  2:04:35 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; tea and that yeast stuff... :)
  2:04:42 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; I have to leave in 5 minutes.
  2:04:52 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; doh
  2:04:59 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; mmm yeast stuff
  2:05:27 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; if Homer Simpson lived in Austrailia...
  2:05:38 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Pete: I've enjoyed the discussion on avalon ;-)
  2:05:52 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; Otherwise, I was complaining about the seemingly
  needless copying going in build scripts.
  2:06:27 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Ceki: unless filtering is used, no copying should
  be necessary.
  2:07:09 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; sam: yer? what do you mean? ;)
  2:07:11 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; That seems reasonable to me too.
  2:09:15 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; Hey Pete -- while Sam and Ceki discuss CVS and
  builds, can I ask you, do you know much about IRC?
  2:09:44 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; not really - no - sorry ;)
  2:10:14 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; In T4 for example, the contents of build/** are
  mostly dynamically generated and then
  2:10:47 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; copied to dist/** as is. I don't want to pick on
  T4. It's just an example
  2:10:55 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; I am aware of.
  2:11:22 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Strunk and White: omit needless copies.  ;-)
  2:12:09 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; Nothing tragic, it all works but seems redundant
  to me. No needless white space, OK.
  2:12:46 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; [I guess that didn't translate well; see
  http://www.strunkandwhite.com/ ]
  2:13:04 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; cgu: I believe Avalon does the same for a few
  things (generates docs to build and then copies em round for
  dist/local-docs)
  2:14:53 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; 2115 GMT, and significantly less of a quorum that last week.
  2:15:17 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; Hmm, ok. Why not generate into dist/** and zip or tar that?
  2:15:42 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; Shall we let Sam begin?
  2:16:19 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Ceki - if you need to run, do what you have to do...
  2:16:28 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; Want me to send a quick reminder mail to the pmc list?
  2:16:33 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; The Elements of Style: What you don't think much
  of our (my?) command of the ENglish language? ;)
  2:16:51 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; I am actually using the computer of a friend in
  his beedroom. It's
  2:17:15 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; 11:15PM here. He'll tell me when I have to stop.
  2:17:15 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Pete: you definately do not follow the dictim of
  &quot;omit needless words&quot;.
  2:17:26 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; ;-)
  2:17:28 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; cgu: reasoning is that historically they were
  further manipulated, besides which they are copied to multiple places..
  They possibly could be removed bnow though ;)
  2:17:48 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; Good to hear.
  2:18:13 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Ted: still here?
  2:18:26 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; sam: ;)
  2:19:14 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; Yep
  2:19:27 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; 1.1	Ted: reformat the rules for
  revolutionaries document from an email to a bylaw
  2:19:36 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; Done.
  2:19:47 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; Have to leave now.
  2:20:07 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; seeya ;/
  2:20:14 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Ceki: ok, later!
  2:20:19 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Ted: URL?
  2:20:22 PM:      &lt;cgu&gt; +1 on the rules for revs. Bye now.
  2:20:24 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt;
  http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html#decisions/branches
  2:20:33 PM: *** cgu has signed off (Leaving)
  2:21:02 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Ted: +1
  2:21:48 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; Is there a summary/diff of changes since last time?
  2:22:24 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; Everything is either in strike-out or maroon font
  2:22:45 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; For the R4R, this is the only time
  2:22:49 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; except for James' original
  2:23:00 PM: *** dfs (-dfs@24.180.134.184) joined #jakarta
  2:23:55 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; duh me - right okay looks good +1
  2:24:24 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; I have a specific issue re the rules for revs,
  but this may not be the right place
  2:24:34 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Geir: go ahead
  2:25:02 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; in the case of commons, where the 'main cvs' is a
  set of subprojects in their own right, and we have the 'sandbox'
  2:25:32 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; to get to the point :
  2:25:46 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; we already have in commons the basis of R for R
  because anyone can go start something in the sandbox
  2:26:02 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; and in the main cvs components themsevles, I
  think that R for R should apply as well
  2:26:18 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; so getting to the point :)  :
  2:26:25 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; can it be something that a subproject can modify?
  2:26:38 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; because it would be 'Jakarta policy'
  2:26:50 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; w/ no leeway for the projects as needs or situations dictate
  2:27:00 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; (done)
  2:27:47 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; Lots of things are &quot;Jakarta&quot; policy that projects ignore ;)
  2:27:50 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; the point is subtle, and prollie lost on anyone
  not involved in commons
  2:27:58 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Outside of legal issues (including ownership of
  name, etc), I see little that a subproject can't tweak.
  2:28:09 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; ok. I am happy to leave it there
  2:28:27 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; 1.2	Ted: revise bylaws
  2:28:48 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; Same place, see outer loop.
  2:29:55 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Ted: is the proposal ready for a vote/adoption?
  2:30:08 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; Sure.
  2:31:04 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; I assume we can read and discuss over the next month?
  2:31:27 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; OK, +1 here.  Represents a (significant, IMHO)
  improvement and can always be ammended.
  2:31:36 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Geir: how much longer does it need to be posted?  ;-)
  2:31:55 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; how long has it been done?
  2:32:05 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; sorry - I didn't start looking at it until now
  2:32:07 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; +1 on it but I think that in the future the r4r needs to be expanded ;)
  2:32:10 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; Oh, 3 months or so.
  2:32:13 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; ah
  2:32:17 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; :)
  2:32:26 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; I thought you were still working on it.
  2:35:26 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Hmmm.  I'm not sure we have enough of a quorum to ammend the bylaws.
  2:36:09 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; And people seem to be uncharacteristically quiet today....
  2:36:18 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; (reading...)
  2:36:19 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; whos here but not here exactly?
  2:36:41 PM:      &lt;dfs&gt; me
  2:37:08 PM:      &lt;dfs&gt; sorry, today had some unexpected surprises (sorry for being late)
  2:38:07 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; I'm here --- looking thru Ted's stuff (hadn't
  seen the color-coded version before...)
  2:38:07 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; check out this feature request for ant:
  2:38:11 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt;  I think it'd be useful to generate Makefiles
  from build.xml ... The reasons
  2:38:17 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; given for the creation of Ant had to do with
  pitfalls of writing Makefiles.
  2:38:23 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; Perhaps one generated from build.xml would remove
  that problem. Pulling up a JVM
  2:38:27 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; to run Ant is simply too slow at times.
  2:39:31 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; LOL...First thing people say about Ant is how
  much faster it is when compiling Java code.
  2:40:11 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; ;)
  2:40:20 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; I was thinking of pointing him to imake, but I
  thought that'd be cruel :)
  2:40:28 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; hehe
  2:40:32 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; 1.3	Ceki: proposal for cvs layout &amp; build procedures (done)
  2:40:43 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; 1.4	Sam: pmc election process
  2:41:01 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; I don't have anything prepared....are people
  aware of what was recently done by/to the XML PMC?
  2:41:17 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; no
  2:41:34 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; but I assume it has been posted for 3 months
  2:41:41 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; You mean the it go poof phenomenon?
  2:42:58 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; The XML PMC was disbanded.  An election was held on general@xml.
  2:43:14 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Votes were secret - counted by the board.  Five were selected.  
  2:43:36 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Essentially, it was the equivalent of a complete re-election.
  2:44:10 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; Re: Ted's stuff -- there's a sentence where he
  says &quot;tactic approval&quot; -- I suspect he meant &quot;tacit approval&quot; (it's in
  the Note wrt &quot;Lazy&quot;, under Voting).
  2:44:10 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Right now PMC members are until resignation or
  being kicked out.  Should everybody be subject to reelection?
  2:44:42 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; Yes, tacit.
  2:45:01 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; there's plenty of upside to that, but downside is
  total loss of institutional memory, so to speak
  2:45:11 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; if a lot of turnover
  2:45:36 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; I think reelection is a nice aim - however I
  assume that in most cases the same people will sit year after year
  (unless they abandon their projects).
  2:45:41 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Downside is theoretical.  The ASF board has an
  annual relection.  When the dust settled, there was a diff of -2/+2.
  2:45:57 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; yes, theoretical - 'if'
  2:46:38 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; One downside is potential lack of
  representation...e.g., three Tomcat guys and noone interested in ecs.
  2:46:56 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; what about the chair being elected from sitting members?
  2:47:30 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; We had a significant discussion about
  representation in the XML PMC.  I thought it important.  Scott thought
  it important and 1-1.  Others thought it was UNimportant.
  2:48:03 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Re: 1-1, I used avalon as an example.  Splitting
  into multiple CVSes with no new committers does not imply the need for
  more representatives.
  2:48:05 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; it would be nice if every project could
  elect/nominate/whatever a champion. The problem will then be that some
  projects get over-represented with respect to how much dev goes on at
  jakarta.
  2:48:27 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Pete: define project.  How many votes does Avalon
  get?  Tomcat?  Servletapi?
  2:48:45 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; avalon 1
  2:48:59 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; tomcat+servlet api: 1
  2:49:10 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; (I assume servlet api part of tomcat)
  2:49:14 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; The XML pmc decided on 1 committer one vote.  The
  ASF board does one member one vote.
  2:49:34 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; 1 committer one vote could work aswell
  2:49:37 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Pete: tomcat3/4 one vote!  I'd like to see that ;-)
  2:50:09 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; it's a tomcat committer a tomcat committer?
  2:50:16 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; s/it's/isn't/
  2:50:43 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; geir: huh?
  2:50:52 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; sam: could be fun huh? ;)
  2:51:10 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; I thought sam was saying that if you are a
  committer in tomcat3 and tomcat4, you only get 1
  2:51:20 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; but I didn't think there was a distinction
  2:51:22 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Geir: Tomcat 4 was a revolution.  Nearly a bloody one at that.
  2:51:44 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; I remember the mess - so the committers are segmented?
  2:53:42 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Geir, doesn't matter - the point is that however
  you try to group projects, people will complain.  ;-)
  2:54:31 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; may I add people will complain regardless of what we do ;)
  2:54:32 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; My thoughts at this point is to model after the
  ASF board and XML PMC - annual reelections, predetermined number of
  seats (smaller than today), and 1 committer one vote.
  2:55:02 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Pete: ;-)
  2:55:18 PM:      &lt;dfs&gt; makes sense
  2:55:37 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; I like aswell
  2:55:57 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; q: why not 1 per project?
  2:56:16 PM:      &lt;dfs&gt; one vote or one seat?
  2:56:27 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; seat
  2:56:38 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; never mind
  2:56:39 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; some projects have 10 active committers, others
  have 1 - should they get equal representation?
  2:56:45 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; never mind
  2:56:46 PM:      &lt;dfs&gt; seems like it would get too big
  2:58:35 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; so where are we?
  2:58:51 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; OK, we have time to think about this for a bit. 
  Next election should probably coincide with the end of my term.
  2:59:01 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; 3.1	Consistent mailing list policies (moderation, etc)
  2:59:55 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Are people happy or unhappy with the current
  moderators or lack thereof?
  3:00:05 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; I think consistent naming should be used and
  moderation policies.
  3:00:14 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; we need a moderator for pmc list ;)
  3:00:41 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; People often ask about newsgroups as an alternative
  3:00:55 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; why?
  3:01:59 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; Traffic -- downloading all the messages.
  3:03:13 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; My preference would be a general policy with
  subprojects being able to tailor.  Trouble is that now we can't tell if
  what we have is a tailor or an accident.  ;-)
  3:04:25 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; I guess the suggestion is that all lists be open
  only to subscribers with the rest moderated, with the PMC and
  announcements lists being open and strictly moderated respectively.
  3:04:25 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; OK?
  3:05:00 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; sounds good to me
  3:05:04 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; ie +1
  3:05:10 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; why not moderate pmc as well?
  3:06:03 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Scenario: someone outside the PMC wants to report
  a security bug in Tomcat or GPL code in commons...
  3:06:42 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; ... and?  doesn't a moderator just let that go through?
  3:06:44 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; time thing? ie we can't wait till moderator tags it as go?
  3:06:56 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; Scenario : www.bigguns.com....
  3:07:09 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; ... keeps the spam out...
  3:07:18 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Moderators have been known to introduce
  significant delays...   ;-)
  3:07:41 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; anyway that duty can be shared?
  3:08:01 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Has spam been a problem on the PMC list.  I
  interpreted Pete's first comment to be that we should moderate the
  SUBSCRIBERS.  ;-)
  3:08:10 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; :)
  3:09:08 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; actually I was talking about spam but I guess it
  is only one list so ... ;)
  3:09:45 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; If someone wants to volunteer to moderate the
  PMC, let me know.  Any more new business?  Geir?
  3:10:05 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; yes
  3:10:14 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; thanks - I didn't read my email yet :)
  3:10:27 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; 1) Anyone mind if I put a 'news' sidebar on the
  jakarta homepage?
  3:10:33 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; the news is currently hidden.
  3:11:08 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; 2) Any interest for or against in putting
  together a 'jakarta job board' for people with experience with jakarta
  'technologies'?
  3:11:31 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; for example, Fedor from Turbine/Vel land is
  looking for a job, and has tremendous Turbine / Vel experience....
  3:11:34 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; Essentials
  3:11:44 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; sorry?
  3:11:47 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; Essentials?news not enough?
  3:11:53 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; Essentials/news not enough?
  3:11:55 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; bleh
  3:11:57 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; ;)
  3:12:01 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; the news is hidden behind a link.
  3:12:10 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; it might be nice to be able to glance at it for new things.
  3:12:29 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; oh - you mean dynamically generate sidebar for news items?
  3:12:51 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; dynamic - when the news is updated.... take the
  top three and put the headline or soething with a link
  3:12:59 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; (small, on the side)
  3:12:59 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; sounds good to me
  3:13:38 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Personally, I'd flip it.  News is the majority with links to the rest.
  3:13:52 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Example of a good site (IMHO): http://www.php.net
  3:13:52 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; -
  3:13:56 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; -
  3:13:57 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; job board sounds ok to me - one issue is we don't
  want for it to seem like it is apache sanctioned. ie just because Bob
  claims he can do X with technology Y in Apache land
  3:14:08 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; I didn't want to rock that boat too hard, re the
  front page.  dind't know if there was history.
  3:14:26 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; I'll try something and then we can unwind if it doesn't create joy...
  3:14:35 PM: *** Ted has signed off ()
  3:14:36 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; Pete : that was my worry too
  3:15:13 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Geir: our problem is generally not enough people
  wanting to do things, not people wanting to keep things as they are.
  3:15:18 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; I think it would be good to have default front
  page news if thats what you are getting at
  3:15:24 PM: *** Ted (-ted@roc-24-24-50-8.rochester.rr.com) joined #jakarta
  3:15:32 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; rehi ;)
  3:15:54 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; well, there are strange threads of history sometimes :)
  3:16:10 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; so I will just do it and apologize later :)
  3:16:29 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; works for me ;)
  3:16:39 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Jon: still here?
  3:16:52 PM: *** Received CTCP &quot;TIME&quot; from Pete
  3:17:10 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; If anybody has strong opinions on this subject
  (web site), it would be jon.
  3:17:46 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; yes, but the apologize later approach gets points with him :)
  3:18:23 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; I can ask him later too, so we don't hold this up
  3:18:26 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; I like Geir's idea -- I don't click on the News
  link all that often, but I'd probably read some little &quot;headlines&quot;
  section (then click on anything that intrigued me)
  3:18:40 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Subproject status?  I'd suggest everyone simply post.
  3:19:02 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; Post where?
  3:19:13 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Alexandria - three competing/cooperating
  proposals.  Trying to converge on a single DTD.  Turbine continues to
  frustrate Gump.
  3:19:26 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Diane: here.
  3:20:19 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; James: A new committer adding in all sorts of
  features (NNTP, allowing multiple protocol handlers etc). There is a few
  issues with remoteManagement but other than that all is well
  3:21:47 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; Velocity : had the v1.0 release April 2, v1.0.1
  bugfix release April 23, things are going very well.
  3:21:53 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; Taglibs: very busy. 4 new releases. 3 new proposals.
  3:22:07 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; Ant - Stefan's voting for Ant2 has completed, so
  I expect a call for proposals will be coming soon. A 1.4 release is
  planned as well -- probably sometime around June. The Antidote GUI has
  several new committers and was moved into a separate area in CVS.
  3:22:58 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; JMeter : just getting into it.  Introduced myself
  to the main committers, they understand what I am doing.  They had an
  alpha release at the end of March.  I see a slow but steady stream of
  activity.
  3:23:00 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; Avalon: Framework and Basic Components going beta
  to match Cocoon. Aim is for a release start of next month -
  realistically halfway through next month. Phoenix (application server)
  has recently got JMX managemtn added - which almost brings it to &quot;ready&quot;
  in my book (still misses proper logging messages)
  3:24:18 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; ted - commons?
  3:24:33 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; (You were doing that for me, Geir)
  3:24:58 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; ah. I am ready, but figured if you were here :)
  3:25:52 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; Commons : booming in waves :)  Have our first
  released component, the 'Cactus' J2EE unit testing component.  Was
  called J2EEUnit when on sourceforge.  Current in beta, expecting a May 1
  1.0 release I think.
  3:26:29 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; OK, I'll ask on the PMC list for the remainder.
  3:26:55 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; (I had more, but will post to list...)
  3:27:07 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Geir: go ahead then...
  3:27:18 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; (I need to leave in about 20 minutes)
  3:27:23 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; I already deleted it from buffer... will post.
  3:27:25 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; :)
  3:27:27 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; sorry
  3:27:45 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; go on
  3:28:06 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; I don't know how to handle James's quasi-emeritus status.
  3:28:13 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Anybody got any ideas?
  3:28:22 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; it can't be modeled after the apache emeritus?
  3:29:50 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; OK will do.  (It's easier to get forgiveness than permission...)
  3:30:18 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; I was asking more than suggesting :)
  3:30:44 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; I was wondering what the downside would be - I don'
  3:30:49 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; t understand all the implications.
  3:31:47 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; I was a frequent critic of the previous PMC, and
  went head to head with JDD on a number of occasions.  I feel a bit
  uncomfortable unilaterally moving him off the active list.
  3:32:24 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; ok.  didn't he request it?
  3:33:10 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; we can always postpone it to next meeting when we
  have more peeps here. I don't see any problem with what you suggest but
  JDD doesn't like me much so ... ;)
  3:33:30 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; He said &quot;quasi&quot; or some such.  But the ASF allows
  virtually instant reinstatement upon requests.
  3:34:16 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Pete: FYI - JDD and I seem to disagree often on
  mailing lists, but we seek each other out whenever we can in person. 
  It's an odd relationship.
  3:34:58 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; sam: ;)
  3:35:16 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; OK, I'll touch bases with JDD and then update the web site.
  3:35:39 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Last item on the agenda: schedule for next meeting.
  3:36:20 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; I would prefer the alternate times but am okay
  with this one. 7am is muuuuch better than 6am ;)
  3:36:51 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; I'm on vacation 14-18 of May.  7th is good for
  me, and 21 may be ok.
  3:37:29 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; I am open at the moment.  default +1
  3:38:17 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; want to hash this out on the list?
  3:38:31 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; this is glacial in velocity...
  3:38:48 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Suggestion: 21 May, 0400 GMT.
  3:38:58 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; Anytime is usually fine with me, though I'd
  prefer either the morning or the evening, rather than the middle of the
  day.
  3:39:20 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; (Sunday night in California, noon in Melbourne)
  3:39:46 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; 2100	California (prev day)
  3:39:46 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; 0000	NY
  3:39:46 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; 0400	GMT
  3:39:46 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; 0600	Zurich
  3:39:46 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; 1200	Melbourne
  3:40:26 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; And next month, we will rotate to 2100 GMT.  OK?
  3:40:27 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; midnight on a sunday?  ok by me 
  3:40:33 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; Sounds good to me.
  3:40:39 PM:      &lt;Ted&gt; +1
  3:41:02 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; +1
  3:41:34 PM:      &lt;dfs&gt; +1
  3:41:37 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; OK, I move to adjourn the meeting.
  3:41:43 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Seconds?
  3:41:49 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; second :)
  3:41:52 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; second
  3:41:54 PM:      &lt;dfs&gt; i'm sorry today didn't turn out to be a good day
  for me.  i'll send an update and some other comments to the list.
  3:41:55 PM:      &lt;dfs&gt; second
  3:42:25 PM:     &lt;geir&gt; ok.  gotta scoot.  take care.
  3:42:31 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; cheerio
  3:42:33 PM: *** geir has signed off ()
  3:42:35 PM:      &lt;sam&gt; Later...
  3:42:39 PM: *** Ted has signed off ()
  3:42:51 PM:      &lt;dlh&gt; Bye
  3:42:52 PM:     &lt;Pete&gt; bye ;)
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  1.1                  jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/pmc/01-04-22-meeting-irclog.xml
  
  Index: 01-04-22-meeting-irclog.xml
  ===================================================================
  <?xml version="1.0"?>
  <document>
  
    <properties>
      <author email="jon@latchkey.com">Jon S. Stevens</author>
      <title>04-22-01 IRC Log from PMC Meeting</title>
    </properties>
  
  <body>
  
    <section name="04-22-01 IRC Log from PMC Meeting">
  <p>
  Below is the IRC log from the meeting on 04-22-01 held over IRC.
  </p>
  
  <source><![CDATA[
  1:59:01 PM:      <sam> jon: log running?
  1:59:20 PM:  <jon> of course.
  1:59:43 PM:      <cgu> I thought it was soccer... The goal is a lot bigger.
  1:59:49 PM:      <cgu> Room for a server farm.
  1:59:55 PM:      <sam> We'll see if we get as many people as last year.
  2:00:13 PM:      <sam> ceki: it is roller hockey.  Game is in 2.5 hours.
  2:00:27 PM:      <sam> s/year/week/
  2:00:50 PM: *** dlh (+dianeh@shell.tsoft.com) joined #jakarta
  2:00:59 PM:      <sam> Hi diane!
  2:01:06 PM:      <cgu> sam: anything else?
  2:01:18 PM:      <dlh> Hideeho -- did I miss it?
  2:01:34 PM:      <sam> ceki: proposal for cvs layout & build procedures
  2:01:47 PM:      <cgu> Ah!
  2:01:51 PM:      <sam> diane: not started yet.  Ceki has to leave early.
  2:02:18 PM:      <dlh> Oh good -- for a minute there I thought maybe we
  were doing the off-by-one thing again :)
  2:02:22 PM:      <cgu> The directory layout of a project is very closely
  related to
  2:02:33 PM:      <cgu> it's build script.
  2:02:59 PM:      <cgu> The dirlayout document will need a lot of work toget right.
  2:03:17 PM:      <cgu> You input is very much needed.
  2:03:48 PM: *** Pete (+Pete@d354-ps0-mel.alphalink.com.au) joined #jakarta
  2:03:52 PM:     <Pete> hiho
  2:03:57 PM:      <cgu> The binary CVS discussion did not lead to a
  white/black conclusion.
  2:04:07 PM:      <cgu> Hi Pete! Good morning...
  2:04:12 PM:     <Pete> morning ;)
  2:04:24 PM:     <Pete> we started yet - or is time for a tea run?
  2:04:27 PM:     <geir> good morning!
  2:04:35 PM:     <geir> tea and that yeast stuff... :)
  2:04:42 PM:      <cgu> I have to leave in 5 minutes.
  2:04:52 PM:     <Pete> doh
  2:04:59 PM:     <Pete> mmm yeast stuff
  2:05:27 PM:     <geir> if Homer Simpson lived in Austrailia...
  2:05:38 PM:      <sam> Pete: I've enjoyed the discussion on avalon ;-)
  2:05:52 PM:      <cgu> Otherwise, I was complaining about the seemingly
  needless copying going in build scripts.
  2:06:27 PM:      <sam> Ceki: unless filtering is used, no copying should
  be necessary.
  2:07:09 PM:     <Pete> sam: yer? what do you mean? ;)
  2:07:11 PM:      <cgu> That seems reasonable to me too.
  2:09:15 PM:      <dlh> Hey Pete -- while Sam and Ceki discuss CVS and
  builds, can I ask you, do you know much about IRC?
  2:09:44 PM:     <Pete> not really - no - sorry ;)
  2:10:14 PM:      <cgu> In T4 for example, the contents of build/** are
  mostly dynamically generated and then
  2:10:47 PM:      <cgu> copied to dist/** as is. I don't want to pick on
  T4. It's just an example
  2:10:55 PM:      <cgu> I am aware of.
  2:11:22 PM:      <sam> Strunk and White: omit needless copies.  ;-)
  2:12:09 PM:      <cgu> Nothing tragic, it all works but seems redundant
  to me. No needless white space, OK.
  2:12:46 PM:      <sam> [I guess that didn't translate well; see
  http://www.strunkandwhite.com/ ]
  2:13:04 PM:     <Pete> cgu: I believe Avalon does the same for a few
  things (generates docs to build and then copies em round for
  dist/local-docs)
  2:14:53 PM:      <sam> 2115 GMT, and significantly less of a quorum that last week.
  2:15:17 PM:      <cgu> Hmm, ok. Why not generate into dist/** and zip or tar that?
  2:15:42 PM:      <cgu> Shall we let Sam begin?
  2:16:19 PM:      <sam> Ceki - if you need to run, do what you have to do...
  2:16:28 PM:      <dlh> Want me to send a quick reminder mail to the pmc list?
  2:16:33 PM:     <Pete> The Elements of Style: What you don't think much
  of our (my?) command of the ENglish language? ;)
  2:16:51 PM:      <cgu> I am actually using the computer of a friend in
  his beedroom. It's
  2:17:15 PM:      <cgu> 11:15PM here. He'll tell me when I have to stop.
  2:17:15 PM:      <sam> Pete: you definately do not follow the dictim of
  "omit needless words".
  2:17:26 PM:      <sam> ;-)
  2:17:28 PM:     <Pete> cgu: reasoning is that historically they were
  further manipulated, besides which they are copied to multiple places..
  They possibly could be removed bnow though ;)
  2:17:48 PM:      <cgu> Good to hear.
  2:18:13 PM:      <sam> Ted: still here?
  2:18:26 PM:     <Pete> sam: ;)
  2:19:14 PM:      <Ted> Yep
  2:19:27 PM:      <sam> 1.1	Ted: reformat the rules for
  revolutionaries document from an email to a bylaw
  2:19:36 PM:      <Ted> Done.
  2:19:47 PM:      <cgu> Have to leave now.
  2:20:07 PM:     <Pete> seeya ;/
  2:20:14 PM:      <sam> Ceki: ok, later!
  2:20:19 PM:      <sam> Ted: URL?
  2:20:22 PM:      <cgu> +1 on the rules for revs. Bye now.
  2:20:24 PM:      <Ted>
  http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html#decisions/branches
  2:20:33 PM: *** cgu has signed off (Leaving)
  2:21:02 PM:      <sam> Ted: +1
  2:21:48 PM:     <Pete> Is there a summary/diff of changes since last time?
  2:22:24 PM:      <Ted> Everything is either in strike-out or maroon font
  2:22:45 PM:      <Ted> For the R4R, this is the only time
  2:22:49 PM:      <Ted> except for James' original
  2:23:00 PM: *** dfs (-dfs@24.180.134.184) joined #jakarta
  2:23:55 PM:     <Pete> duh me - right okay looks good +1
  2:24:24 PM:     <geir> I have a specific issue re the rules for revs,
  but this may not be the right place
  2:24:34 PM:      <sam> Geir: go ahead
  2:25:02 PM:     <geir> in the case of commons, where the 'main cvs' is a
  set of subprojects in their own right, and we have the 'sandbox'
  2:25:32 PM:     <geir> to get to the point :
  2:25:46 PM:     <geir> we already have in commons the basis of R for R
  because anyone can go start something in the sandbox
  2:26:02 PM:     <geir> and in the main cvs components themsevles, I
  think that R for R should apply as well
  2:26:18 PM:     <geir> so getting to the point :)  :
  2:26:25 PM:     <geir> can it be something that a subproject can modify?
  2:26:38 PM:     <geir> because it would be 'Jakarta policy'
  2:26:50 PM:     <geir> w/ no leeway for the projects as needs or situations dictate
  2:27:00 PM:     <geir> (done)
  2:27:47 PM:     <Pete> Lots of things are "Jakarta" policy that projects ignore ;)
  2:27:50 PM:     <geir> the point is subtle, and prollie lost on anyone
  not involved in commons
  2:27:58 PM:      <sam> Outside of legal issues (including ownership of
  name, etc), I see little that a subproject can't tweak.
  2:28:09 PM:     <geir> ok. I am happy to leave it there
  2:28:27 PM:      <sam> 1.2	Ted: revise bylaws
  2:28:48 PM:      <Ted> Same place, see outer loop.
  2:29:55 PM:      <sam> Ted: is the proposal ready for a vote/adoption?
  2:30:08 PM:      <Ted> Sure.
  2:31:04 PM:     <geir> I assume we can read and discuss over the next month?
  2:31:27 PM:      <sam> OK, +1 here.  Represents a (significant, IMHO)
  improvement and can always be ammended.
  2:31:36 PM:      <sam> Geir: how much longer does it need to be posted?  ;-)
  2:31:55 PM:     <geir> how long has it been done?
  2:32:05 PM:     <geir> sorry - I didn't start looking at it until now
  2:32:07 PM:     <Pete> +1 on it but I think that in the future the r4r needs to be expanded ;)
  2:32:10 PM:      <Ted> Oh, 3 months or so.
  2:32:13 PM:     <geir> ah
  2:32:17 PM:     <geir> :)
  2:32:26 PM:     <geir> I thought you were still working on it.
  2:35:26 PM:      <sam> Hmmm.  I'm not sure we have enough of a quorum to ammend the bylaws.
  2:36:09 PM:      <sam> And people seem to be uncharacteristically quiet today....
  2:36:18 PM:     <geir> (reading...)
  2:36:19 PM:     <Pete> whos here but not here exactly?
  2:36:41 PM:      <dfs> me
  2:37:08 PM:      <dfs> sorry, today had some unexpected surprises (sorry for being late)
  2:38:07 PM:      <dlh> I'm here --- looking thru Ted's stuff (hadn't
  seen the color-coded version before...)
  2:38:07 PM:     <Pete> check out this feature request for ant:
  2:38:11 PM:     <Pete>  I think it'd be useful to generate Makefiles
  from build.xml ... The reasons
  2:38:17 PM:     <Pete> given for the creation of Ant had to do with
  pitfalls of writing Makefiles.
  2:38:23 PM:     <Pete> Perhaps one generated from build.xml would remove
  that problem. Pulling up a JVM
  2:38:27 PM:     <Pete> to run Ant is simply too slow at times.
  2:39:31 PM:      <sam> LOL...First thing people say about Ant is how
  much faster it is when compiling Java code.
  2:40:11 PM:     <Pete> ;)
  2:40:20 PM:      <dlh> I was thinking of pointing him to imake, but I
  thought that'd be cruel :)
  2:40:28 PM:     <Pete> hehe
  2:40:32 PM:      <sam> 1.3	Ceki: proposal for cvs layout & build procedures (done)
  2:40:43 PM:      <sam> 1.4	Sam: pmc election process
  2:41:01 PM:      <sam> I don't have anything prepared....are people
  aware of what was recently done by/to the XML PMC?
  2:41:17 PM:     <geir> no
  2:41:34 PM:     <geir> but I assume it has been posted for 3 months
  2:41:41 PM:     <Pete> You mean the it go poof phenomenon?
  2:42:58 PM:      <sam> The XML PMC was disbanded.  An election was held on general@xml.
  2:43:14 PM:      <sam> Votes were secret - counted by the board.  Five were selected.  
  2:43:36 PM:      <sam> Essentially, it was the equivalent of a complete re-election.
  2:44:10 PM:      <dlh> Re: Ted's stuff -- there's a sentence where he
  says "tactic approval" -- I suspect he meant "tacit approval" (it's in
  the Note wrt "Lazy", under Voting).
  2:44:10 PM:      <sam> Right now PMC members are until resignation or
  being kicked out.  Should everybody be subject to reelection?
  2:44:42 PM:      <Ted> Yes, tacit.
  2:45:01 PM:     <geir> there's plenty of upside to that, but downside is
  total loss of institutional memory, so to speak
  2:45:11 PM:     <geir> if a lot of turnover
  2:45:36 PM:     <Pete> I think reelection is a nice aim - however I
  assume that in most cases the same people will sit year after year
  (unless they abandon their projects).
  2:45:41 PM:      <sam> Downside is theoretical.  The ASF board has an
  annual relection.  When the dust settled, there was a diff of -2/+2.
  2:45:57 PM:     <geir> yes, theoretical - 'if'
  2:46:38 PM:      <sam> One downside is potential lack of
  representation...e.g., three Tomcat guys and noone interested in ecs.
  2:46:56 PM:     <geir> what about the chair being elected from sitting members?
  2:47:30 PM:      <sam> We had a significant discussion about
  representation in the XML PMC.  I thought it important.  Scott thought
  it important and 1-1.  Others thought it was UNimportant.
  2:48:03 PM:      <sam> Re: 1-1, I used avalon as an example.  Splitting
  into multiple CVSes with no new committers does not imply the need for
  more representatives.
  2:48:05 PM:     <Pete> it would be nice if every project could
  elect/nominate/whatever a champion. The problem will then be that some
  projects get over-represented with respect to how much dev goes on at
  jakarta.
  2:48:27 PM:      <sam> Pete: define project.  How many votes does Avalon
  get?  Tomcat?  Servletapi?
  2:48:45 PM:     <Pete> avalon 1
  2:48:59 PM:     <Pete> tomcat+servlet api: 1
  2:49:10 PM:     <Pete> (I assume servlet api part of tomcat)
  2:49:14 PM:      <sam> The XML pmc decided on 1 committer one vote.  The
  ASF board does one member one vote.
  2:49:34 PM:     <Pete> 1 committer one vote could work aswell
  2:49:37 PM:      <sam> Pete: tomcat3/4 one vote!  I'd like to see that ;-)
  2:50:09 PM:     <geir> it's a tomcat committer a tomcat committer?
  2:50:16 PM:     <geir> s/it's/isn't/
  2:50:43 PM:     <Pete> geir: huh?
  2:50:52 PM:     <Pete> sam: could be fun huh? ;)
  2:51:10 PM:     <geir> I thought sam was saying that if you are a
  committer in tomcat3 and tomcat4, you only get 1
  2:51:20 PM:     <geir> but I didn't think there was a distinction
  2:51:22 PM:      <sam> Geir: Tomcat 4 was a revolution.  Nearly a bloody one at that.
  2:51:44 PM:     <geir> I remember the mess - so the committers are segmented?
  2:53:42 PM:      <sam> Geir, doesn't matter - the point is that however
  you try to group projects, people will complain.  ;-)
  2:54:31 PM:     <Pete> may I add people will complain regardless of what we do ;)
  2:54:32 PM:      <sam> My thoughts at this point is to model after the
  ASF board and XML PMC - annual reelections, predetermined number of
  seats (smaller than today), and 1 committer one vote.
  2:55:02 PM:      <sam> Pete: ;-)
  2:55:18 PM:      <dfs> makes sense
  2:55:37 PM:     <Pete> I like aswell
  2:55:57 PM:     <geir> q: why not 1 per project?
  2:56:16 PM:      <dfs> one vote or one seat?
  2:56:27 PM:     <geir> seat
  2:56:38 PM:     <geir> never mind
  2:56:39 PM:     <Pete> some projects have 10 active committers, others
  have 1 - should they get equal representation?
  2:56:45 PM:     <geir> never mind
  2:56:46 PM:      <dfs> seems like it would get too big
  2:58:35 PM:     <geir> so where are we?
  2:58:51 PM:      <sam> OK, we have time to think about this for a bit. 
  Next election should probably coincide with the end of my term.
  2:59:01 PM:      <sam> 3.1	Consistent mailing list policies (moderation, etc)
  2:59:55 PM:      <sam> Are people happy or unhappy with the current
  moderators or lack thereof?
  3:00:05 PM:     <Pete> I think consistent naming should be used and
  moderation policies.
  3:00:14 PM:     <Pete> we need a moderator for pmc list ;)
  3:00:41 PM:      <Ted> People often ask about newsgroups as an alternative
  3:00:55 PM:     <geir> why?
  3:01:59 PM:      <Ted> Traffic -- downloading all the messages.
  3:03:13 PM:      <sam> My preference would be a general policy with
  subprojects being able to tailor.  Trouble is that now we can't tell if
  what we have is a tailor or an accident.  ;-)
  3:04:25 PM:      <sam> I guess the suggestion is that all lists be open
  only to subscribers with the rest moderated, with the PMC and
  announcements lists being open and strictly moderated respectively.
  3:04:25 PM:      <sam> OK?
  3:05:00 PM:     <Pete> sounds good to me
  3:05:04 PM:     <Pete> ie +1
  3:05:10 PM:     <geir> why not moderate pmc as well?
  3:06:03 PM:      <sam> Scenario: someone outside the PMC wants to report
  a security bug in Tomcat or GPL code in commons...
  3:06:42 PM:     <geir> ... and?  doesn't a moderator just let that go through?
  3:06:44 PM:     <Pete> time thing? ie we can't wait till moderator tags it as go?
  3:06:56 PM:     <geir> Scenario : www.bigguns.com....
  3:07:09 PM:     <geir> ... keeps the spam out...
  3:07:18 PM:      <sam> Moderators have been known to introduce
  significant delays...   ;-)
  3:07:41 PM:     <geir> anyway that duty can be shared?
  3:08:01 PM:      <sam> Has spam been a problem on the PMC list.  I
  interpreted Pete's first comment to be that we should moderate the
  SUBSCRIBERS.  ;-)
  3:08:10 PM:     <geir> :)
  3:09:08 PM:     <Pete> actually I was talking about spam but I guess it
  is only one list so ... ;)
  3:09:45 PM:      <sam> If someone wants to volunteer to moderate the
  PMC, let me know.  Any more new business?  Geir?
  3:10:05 PM:     <geir> yes
  3:10:14 PM:     <geir> thanks - I didn't read my email yet :)
  3:10:27 PM:     <geir> 1) Anyone mind if I put a 'news' sidebar on the
  jakarta homepage?
  3:10:33 PM:     <geir> the news is currently hidden.
  3:11:08 PM:     <geir> 2) Any interest for or against in putting
  together a 'jakarta job board' for people with experience with jakarta
  'technologies'?
  3:11:31 PM:     <geir> for example, Fedor from Turbine/Vel land is
  looking for a job, and has tremendous Turbine / Vel experience....
  3:11:34 PM:     <Pete> Essentials
  3:11:44 PM:     <geir> sorry?
  3:11:47 PM:     <Pete> Essentials?news not enough?
  3:11:53 PM:     <Pete> Essentials/news not enough?
  3:11:55 PM:     <Pete> bleh
  3:11:57 PM:     <Pete> ;)
  3:12:01 PM:     <geir> the news is hidden behind a link.
  3:12:10 PM:     <geir> it might be nice to be able to glance at it for new things.
  3:12:29 PM:     <Pete> oh - you mean dynamically generate sidebar for news items?
  3:12:51 PM:     <geir> dynamic - when the news is updated.... take the
  top three and put the headline or soething with a link
  3:12:59 PM:     <geir> (small, on the side)
  3:12:59 PM:     <Pete> sounds good to me
  3:13:38 PM:      <sam> Personally, I'd flip it.  News is the majority with links to the rest.
  3:13:52 PM:      <sam> Example of a good site (IMHO): http://www.php.net
  3:13:52 PM:      <Ted> -
  3:13:56 PM:      <Ted> -
  3:13:57 PM:     <Pete> job board sounds ok to me - one issue is we don't
  want for it to seem like it is apache sanctioned. ie just because Bob
  claims he can do X with technology Y in Apache land
  3:14:08 PM:     <geir> I didn't want to rock that boat too hard, re the
  front page.  dind't know if there was history.
  3:14:26 PM:     <geir> I'll try something and then we can unwind if it doesn't create joy...
  3:14:35 PM: *** Ted has signed off ()
  3:14:36 PM:     <geir> Pete : that was my worry too
  3:15:13 PM:      <sam> Geir: our problem is generally not enough people
  wanting to do things, not people wanting to keep things as they are.
  3:15:18 PM:     <Pete> I think it would be good to have default front
  page news if thats what you are getting at
  3:15:24 PM: *** Ted (-ted@roc-24-24-50-8.rochester.rr.com) joined #jakarta
  3:15:32 PM:     <Pete> rehi ;)
  3:15:54 PM:     <geir> well, there are strange threads of history sometimes :)
  3:16:10 PM:     <geir> so I will just do it and apologize later :)
  3:16:29 PM:     <Pete> works for me ;)
  3:16:39 PM:      <sam> Jon: still here?
  3:16:52 PM: *** Received CTCP "TIME" from Pete
  3:17:10 PM:      <sam> If anybody has strong opinions on this subject
  (web site), it would be jon.
  3:17:46 PM:     <geir> yes, but the apologize later approach gets points with him :)
  3:18:23 PM:     <geir> I can ask him later too, so we don't hold this up
  3:18:26 PM:      <dlh> I like Geir's idea -- I don't click on the News
  link all that often, but I'd probably read some little "headlines"
  section (then click on anything that intrigued me)
  3:18:40 PM:      <sam> Subproject status?  I'd suggest everyone simply post.
  3:19:02 PM:      <dlh> Post where?
  3:19:13 PM:      <sam> Alexandria - three competing/cooperating
  proposals.  Trying to converge on a single DTD.  Turbine continues to
  frustrate Gump.
  3:19:26 PM:      <sam> Diane: here.
  3:20:19 PM:     <Pete> James: A new committer adding in all sorts of
  features (NNTP, allowing multiple protocol handlers etc). There is a few
  issues with remoteManagement but other than that all is well
  3:21:47 PM:     <geir> Velocity : had the v1.0 release April 2, v1.0.1
  bugfix release April 23, things are going very well.
  3:21:53 PM:      <Ted> Taglibs: very busy. 4 new releases. 3 new proposals.
  3:22:07 PM:      <dlh> Ant - Stefan's voting for Ant2 has completed, so
  I expect a call for proposals will be coming soon. A 1.4 release is
  planned as well -- probably sometime around June. The Antidote GUI has
  several new committers and was moved into a separate area in CVS.
  3:22:58 PM:     <geir> JMeter : just getting into it.  Introduced myself
  to the main committers, they understand what I am doing.  They had an
  alpha release at the end of March.  I see a slow but steady stream of
  activity.
  3:23:00 PM:     <Pete> Avalon: Framework and Basic Components going beta
  to match Cocoon. Aim is for a release start of next month -
  realistically halfway through next month. Phoenix (application server)
  has recently got JMX managemtn added - which almost brings it to "ready"
  in my book (still misses proper logging messages)
  3:24:18 PM:     <geir> ted - commons?
  3:24:33 PM:      <Ted> (You were doing that for me, Geir)
  3:24:58 PM:     <geir> ah. I am ready, but figured if you were here :)
  3:25:52 PM:     <geir> Commons : booming in waves :)  Have our first
  released component, the 'Cactus' J2EE unit testing component.  Was
  called J2EEUnit when on sourceforge.  Current in beta, expecting a May 1
  1.0 release I think.
  3:26:29 PM:      <sam> OK, I'll ask on the PMC list for the remainder.
  3:26:55 PM:     <geir> (I had more, but will post to list...)
  3:27:07 PM:      <sam> Geir: go ahead then...
  3:27:18 PM:      <sam> (I need to leave in about 20 minutes)
  3:27:23 PM:     <geir> I already deleted it from buffer... will post.
  3:27:25 PM:     <geir> :)
  3:27:27 PM:     <geir> sorry
  3:27:45 PM:     <geir> go on
  3:28:06 PM:      <sam> I don't know how to handle James's quasi-emeritus status.
  3:28:13 PM:      <sam> Anybody got any ideas?
  3:28:22 PM:     <geir> it can't be modeled after the apache emeritus?
  3:29:50 PM:      <sam> OK will do.  (It's easier to get forgiveness than permission...)
  3:30:18 PM:     <geir> I was asking more than suggesting :)
  3:30:44 PM:     <geir> I was wondering what the downside would be - I don'
  3:30:49 PM:     <geir> t understand all the implications.
  3:31:47 PM:      <sam> I was a frequent critic of the previous PMC, and
  went head to head with JDD on a number of occasions.  I feel a bit
  uncomfortable unilaterally moving him off the active list.
  3:32:24 PM:     <geir> ok.  didn't he request it?
  3:33:10 PM:     <Pete> we can always postpone it to next meeting when we
  have more peeps here. I don't see any problem with what you suggest but
  JDD doesn't like me much so ... ;)
  3:33:30 PM:      <sam> He said "quasi" or some such.  But the ASF allows
  virtually instant reinstatement upon requests.
  3:34:16 PM:      <sam> Pete: FYI - JDD and I seem to disagree often on
  mailing lists, but we seek each other out whenever we can in person. 
  It's an odd relationship.
  3:34:58 PM:     <Pete> sam: ;)
  3:35:16 PM:      <sam> OK, I'll touch bases with JDD and then update the web site.
  3:35:39 PM:      <sam> Last item on the agenda: schedule for next meeting.
  3:36:20 PM:     <Pete> I would prefer the alternate times but am okay
  with this one. 7am is muuuuch better than 6am ;)
  3:36:51 PM:      <sam> I'm on vacation 14-18 of May.  7th is good for
  me, and 21 may be ok.
  3:37:29 PM:     <geir> I am open at the moment.  default +1
  3:38:17 PM:     <geir> want to hash this out on the list?
  3:38:31 PM:     <geir> this is glacial in velocity...
  3:38:48 PM:      <sam> Suggestion: 21 May, 0400 GMT.
  3:38:58 PM:      <dlh> Anytime is usually fine with me, though I'd
  prefer either the morning or the evening, rather than the middle of the
  day.
  3:39:20 PM:      <sam> (Sunday night in California, noon in Melbourne)
  3:39:46 PM:      <sam> 2100	California (prev day)
  3:39:46 PM:      <sam> 0000	NY
  3:39:46 PM:      <sam> 0400	GMT
  3:39:46 PM:      <sam> 0600	Zurich
  3:39:46 PM:      <sam> 1200	Melbourne
  3:40:26 PM:      <sam> And next month, we will rotate to 2100 GMT.  OK?
  3:40:27 PM:     <geir> midnight on a sunday?  ok by me 
  3:40:33 PM:      <dlh> Sounds good to me.
  3:40:39 PM:      <Ted> +1
  3:41:02 PM:     <Pete> +1
  3:41:34 PM:      <dfs> +1
  3:41:37 PM:      <sam> OK, I move to adjourn the meeting.
  3:41:43 PM:      <sam> Seconds?
  3:41:49 PM:     <geir> second :)
  3:41:52 PM:      <dlh> second
  3:41:54 PM:      <dfs> i'm sorry today didn't turn out to be a good day
  for me.  i'll send an update and some other comments to the list.
  3:41:55 PM:      <dfs> second
  3:42:25 PM:     <geir> ok.  gotta scoot.  take care.
  3:42:31 PM:     <Pete> cheerio
  3:42:33 PM: *** geir has signed off ()
  3:42:35 PM:      <sam> Later...
  3:42:39 PM: *** Ted has signed off ()
  3:42:51 PM:      <dlh> Bye
  3:42:52 PM:     <Pete> bye ;)
  ]]></source>
    </section>
  
  </body>
  </document>
  
  
  

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