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From Patrick Pliessnig <>
Subject Re: Transcribed IsisCon 2017 write-up
Date Mon, 19 Jun 2017 15:27:41 GMT
Hi, my comments are below.

Am 18.06.2017 um 14:20 schrieb Stephen Cameron:
> Hi All,
> I'd like to make some kind of a contribution to this discussion, though I
> agree with most of what I see written. But I'd also like to be a "devils
> advocate" a little too.
> I'm interested to get more work with Apache Isis, I have one live
> application with a small group of users (about 10) who enjoy using it and
> its been very reliable now for about 6 months. I also have a personal
> project that I am developing as well,as time allows, one that I'm trying to
> use best-practices on, well making use of what I learned on the first
> project.
> In regards to marketing of Apache Isis, to explain my thinking i'll first
> state that to me IT seems to me both fashion driven and conservative at the
> same time.
> Fashion driven in that waves of what appears new cycle through repeatedly,
> are latched onto by the big players - when it suites their ends, and then
> get diluted as the novelty is duplicated or incorporated into the
> establised encumbent systems or languages.
I would say the fashion you describe is a part of conservatism as it is 
played out only within the context of the big player as a supplier of 
technology: "there is a good reason that my supplier ist big. One of the 
reasons is that he moves forward and is smart enough to integrate new 
technologies for my benefit. Why should I change it?"
The marketing value in this case is "Size".

> Conservative in that major change such as using an new application
> framework is expensive and has risks, and very few established businesses
> are interested in leading technically, that is unless their business model
> is competition based on technology. I think of something like SAP's ERP
> systems as the purchaser organisation conforming to the SAP domain model,
> so the opposite of being interested in using DDD and for many businesses it
> makes sense (despite the cost) to go this way.

I agree: established business (not in the technology domain) normaly 
have "a running horse". At least the IT-Management thinks so.

> Also conservative in that what comes to be a dominant 'paradigm' in
> open-source software isn't necessarily the technically most advanced,
> rather its what satisfies a need at a specific time and then becomes
> well-known and rapidly improved too, I am thinking of numerous PHP based
> things, more recently AngularJS. Once established its very hard to displace.

I agree: conservative in paradigm too. one of the reasons is responsibility:
"If my project fails and I use dominant paradigm, I can blame the paradigm.
If my project fails and I use exoctic paradigm, others will blame me for 
having gone a risky way."

> So I am leaning more towards the idea of Apache Isis marketing being
> targeted mostly at a technical audience, maybe even at a very technical
> one, that this is the best means for Apache Isis to grab a little "slice of
> the action" and as a result to prosper in the long-term. I agree 100% with
> its strengths, as have been described, being in a complex domain app
> scenario, but also that there are just so many good alternatives being use
> for the less complex (but maybe nicer looking) things, and many developers
> competing for the work.
I don't understand your conclusion to target a (very) technical audience.

    Is this particular audience less conservative than others?
    or do you mean by technical audience, companies whose business model
    is based on competing on a technological level?
    or do you favor the strategy: a bird in the hand is worth two in the

> My vision is essentially an enhanced version of what I see currently exists
> in the project, that there are now very competent programmers (I am not in
> that league) doing a few very complex projects and the framework is
> progressively being improved within in a feed-back loop, something is
> needed someone (usually Dan) does it essentially. The way to make this more
> sustainable is for more such projects to get going (I hope my project can
> be one of them eventually).
> So, 3 things seem desirable, (1) get some more good (complex) projects
> started with Apache Isis, (2) try to stop projects for which Apache Isis is
> not a good fit being started and taking time on the mailing list and
> potentially failing too (3) seeking feedback on why Apache Isis was not
> chosen when it potentially would have been a good fit. I can think of a few
> ideas with regards to (1),  (2) and (3) are maybe another email.

I agree with your point: get some more good projects.
That's closely related to marketing (as you describe).

> Getting some more good projects started
> My strategy has been to look for potential clients that will benefit from
> complex custom (or customised) software and to target them. I've not been
> very successful in this so far I have to admit, I attribute this in part to
> my own sales ability, but also to my location in Tasmania which doesn't
> have alot of head-offices where CTOs are generally. located. However, there
> are a few industries that are growing here and I'm now seeking  small but
> growing firms in those sectors (food and maybe tourism).
If part of your failure is your location and sales ability, it is maybe 
worth if you share with us the other parameters more in detail that 
influenced the failure (besides conservatism in Canberra)
> One major sector I have to ignore is government, they are both very
> conservative and very unwilling, despite their rhetoric, to give something
> new that doesn't have a major player behind it a chance. I once did a
> tender proposal that was priced at half the winning bid, it was thought too
> risky an approach to consider. I'd have another go with Apache Isis but
> only if the application was a very good fit for Apache Isis and those are
> only likely to be Federal projects out of Canberra. I have to be honest and
> say at 55 my energy to go looking there is not very high but does seem to
> me that government projects are often going to be good ones for Apache Isis
> (maybe if I find one here I can call on a pool of talent overseas?)
> The other scenario that seems to make sense is for a small software house
> to use Apache Isis as the basis of a system that is sold, as I understand,
> the way its been used by Oscar Bou's group.
Your scenario for a small software house to use Apache Isis makes 
perfect sense to me. With my words I would say in this case that Apache 
Isis improves the core business ( the value chain ) of this small 
software house to leverage its comparative advantage. I apply this 
strategy as well ( though I am not strictly a software house )
> So this approach is not based on selling Apache Isis features, but on me
> leveraging them to advantage in supplying a service to my potential
> clients. I just tend to say I use Java because I can utilise some good
> open-source frameworks as a base or incorporate libraries in when needed.
> Thinking about marketing to technical audience, a name change would still
> be worthwhile, and of those listed from the gathering I tend to like Apache
> Tailor most as it reflects the custom-made or  'tailor-made' strengths of
> Apache Isis well (a nice icon could be produced from it too). [I am relaxed
> about the new name - but - In the notes there is a reference to jazz, might
> be an in joke but a famous (and very individualistic) jazz guitarist by the
> name of Allan Holdsworth [1][2] died recently, Apache Holdsworth has a nice
> ring and there would be connection to that other popular generated UI
> Python framework].
> The main issue is how to make more developers aware of Apache Isis I think.
> Marketing is still needed for this and targeted advertising is one way to
> do this I feel. If you cannot afford advertising some kind of a publicity
> stunt is an alternative, anyone volunteering?  Another idea is simply to
> look at the already good documentation and think of ways to use that
> resource in other "look what I do" showing off ways. The videos that Dan
> has done are good, maybe that is the answer for others could make quality
> videos linked to sections of the documentation.
> Steve
> [1]
> [2]
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Dan Haywood <>
> wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>> I've just gone through the photo attachments on the IsisCon write-up [1]
>> and transcribed them into text; a little bit easier for others to consume.
>> For those who were there, it would be great if you could flesh out those
>> bullet-points with your own recollections of discussion points that were
>> made that were not written down on the whiteboards.  I've added one or two
>> points of my own along the way.
>> Cheers
>> Dan
>> [1]

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