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From Thomas Wrobel <darkfl...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Retirement
Date Thu, 20 Oct 2016 13:55:12 GMT
Any consensus then on how to move forward?
I've signed up and started looking around swellrt. Only been able to
""debug"" the setup instructions so far, but I hope to contribute
more.

If the agreed logic is "SwellRT needs to show more activity before it
can become the main apache branch", then I feel everyone in this list
should at least be signing onto Gitter
(https://gitter.im/P2Pvalue/swellrt) and taking a look around the
project/related projects to see if theres anything that takes their
fancy.

https://github.com/P2Pvalue/swellrt
https://github.com/P2Pvalue/swellrt-android
https://github.com/P2Pvalue/angular-swellrt
https://github.com/P2Pvalue/swellrt-pad
https://github.com/P2Pvalue/swellrt-java

Theres probably a broad enough range that most people can contribute something.
--
http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site.
http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really, bad story generator.


On 15 October 2016 at 20:52, Bradley D. Thornton <Bradley@northtech.us> wrote:
> This is the link below that I cannot seem to locate.
>
>
> On 8/30/2016 11:25 PM, Adam John wrote:
>>
>> Created a GitHub organization, added each of the available repos:
>> https://github.com/ApacheWave
>>
>> I think I invited everyone on this thread - however there are many others
>> on the list.
>> All are welcome.
>>
>> Loss of Apache incubator status is significant as it means also
>> organizational loss, tools lost, and would effectively put a nail in the
>> coffin for the project.
>>
>> WebCMS, Jira, Jenkins, and Travis are all valuable tools, and part of
>> Incubator status.
>>
>> Quality code review (thanks, vega and wisebaldone etc) and an established
>> process for the inclusion of new contributions by people familiar with
>> existing approaches and the work in progress... all of this is
>> significant.
>>
>> The people on this list - and even the list itself - both a service and an
>> organization that would be a significant loss in any transition...
>>
>> I think the safety of the incubator is important, for these reasons and
>> more; and there needs to be improved communication, planning and
>> coordination... here again, just my opinion.
>>
>> AJ
>>
>> Adam John
>> (914) 623-8433
>> Google+ <http://google.com/+AdamJohn1> | LinkedIn <http://mradamjohn.com/>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Upayavira <uv@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> The best future for Wave at Apache would, I think be to start an
>>> entirely new project at GitHub, and implement a Wave system that people
>>> can actually understand. Once that gains traction, come back to the
>>> Incubator and ask to resurrect Apache Wave with that new codebase.
>>>
>>> The current codebase seems to be simply too complex for people to be
>>> able to pick up. The idea stands as a good one, but the code is just too
>>> complex.
>>>
>>> Upayavira
>>>
>>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2016, at 09:58 PM, Taylor Fahlman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've been a reader of this list for a while. I am another one of the
>>>> people
>>>> who would love to contribute, but literally have no idea where to start.
>>>> I
>>>> really think that if the code was divided a bit more it'd be easier to
>>>> contribute, because I want to see this project keep going. It really
>>>> does
>>>> have a lot of potential in the current climate of silo-ed communication
>>>> systems. An easy docker image would really help too.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 12:54 PM Thomas Wrobel <darkflame@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> While the code will always be there in some form, is there any real
>>>>> hope outside of Apache though? will it not just fizzle out?
>>>>> Apache provides somewhat needed pressure, structure and to some extent
>>>>> even prestige.
>>>>>
>>>>> While retirement is understandable necessity for things without
>>>>> progress, its nevertheless sad for a project with such potential.  Is
>>>>> it possible to put a call out for developers? a last warning? a
>>>>> advert? something beyond this list?
>>>>> I have no idea what form it would take though. I am so ignorant with
>>>>> big projects, both socially and structurally. Theres tools out there
>>>>> supposed to help motivate and organised (www.teamily.com) dont know
>>>>> how effectively they are though.
>>>>>
>>>>> It just all seems such a waste for wave to die, its death marking a
>>>>> little lost hope for the open web to recover some ground from the
>>>>> closed hubs that dominate today.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site.
>>>>> http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really, bad story generator.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30 August 2016 at 21:41, Upayavira <uv@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I said earlier in this thread, retirement means the closure of
an
>>>>>> "apache" community. The code is already open source. So long as the
>>>>>> trademark and the Apache License V2 on the code are respected, as
>>>
>>> now,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> anyone is free to do what they like with the code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thus, if someone (or someones) wanted to move it to Github, that'd
be
>>>>>> fine. I'm sure Apache wouldn't object to them using the name "Wave"
>>>
>>> in
>>>>>>
>>>>>> some form.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Upayavira
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2016, at 08:54 PM, Michael MacFadden wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yuri,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Being a mostly silent participant at this point.  I would tend
to
>>>
>>> agree
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> with you.  I think however, we should provide a “what next”
>>>
>>> option.  So
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for example, people might be more willing to retire the project
if
>>>
>>> they
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> knew for example we could move to github and still allow people
to
>>>>>>> contribute and develop if they see fit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~Michael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/30/16, 11:52 AM, "Yuri Z" <vega113@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      After some thought I hate to agree, that at current levels
of
>>>>>>>      participation
>>>>>>>      the only rational choice is to decide to retire as we are
just
>>>>>>>      wasting
>>>>>>>      Apache Foundation resources without any real hope of graduating.
>>>>>>>      Moreover, there were a few active projects based on Apache
Wave
>>>
>>> that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      felt
>>>>>>>      little motivation to contribute back actively. I think this
is
>>>>>>>      because they
>>>>>>>      found little need in Apache Foundation resources, while
>>>
>>> contributing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      back
>>>>>>>      required certain effort to comply with Apache rules.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      I think we should hold a retirement vote and either recruit
>>>>>>>      sufficient
>>>>>>>      number of supporters willing and able actively participate
>>>>>>>      immediately, or
>>>>>>>      retire.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 9:13 PM Jonathan Leong <
>>>
>>> jon.leong@gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > I would hate to see this project retire.
>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>      > Adam you bring up good points. I can get the ball rolling
with
>>>>>
>>>>> the Docker
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > image. I'll see what I can get done over the next week
or so.
>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>      > -Jonathan Leong
>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>      > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Adam John <
>>>
>>> aj@sterlingsolved.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>      > > I have to weigh in and say that I agree that the
bar here
>>>
>>> was
>>>>>
>>>>> set high
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > from
>>>>>>>      > > several perspectives.
>>>>>>>      > >
>>>>>>>      > > I'm currently evaluating what components of this
project
>>>
>>> can be
>>>>>
>>>>> most
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > useful
>>>>>>>      > > for incorporation into 2 separate projects. If
either one
>>>
>>> moves
>>>>>
>>>>> forward
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > in
>>>>>>>      > > the next 6 months, there will be more developers
actively
>>>>>
>>>>> involved here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > >
>>>>>>>      > > That said, I've watched some of the transition
videos from
>>>>>
>>>>> Google folks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > and
>>>>>>>      > > read a lot of the docs, reviewed code and worked
on
>>>>>
>>>>> implementing this
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > project for myself.  It is daunting and would
benefit
>>>
>>> overall
>>>>>
>>>>> from 2
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > significant - imho critical - updates;
>>>>>>>      > > (1) the Product itself needs real changes - like
the
>>>
>>> concept of
>>>>>
>>>>> bots
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > needs
>>>>>>>      > > pulled out from core terminology and revamped
as a more
>>>
>>> current
>>>>>
>>>>> common
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > concept / ie agents.  There needs to be better
organization
>>>
>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > Product
>>>>>>>      > > from concept to contribution.  This is not to
diminish the
>>>
>>> vast
>>>>>
>>>>> resources
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > present, only to highlight an improvement area.
>>>>>>>      > > (2) the Architecture needs serious review and
revision to
>>>>>
>>>>> figure out how
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > best to leverage other projects and allow focus
on the
>>>
>>> specific
>>>>>
>>>>> benefits
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > this project enables.  The technology stack overall
needs
>>>
>>> better
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > separation
>>>>>>>      > > at least from a newcomers perspective.
>>>>>>>      > > As a third factor, and #1 on my list for adoption
is rolling
>>>>>
>>>>> docker
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > images
>>>>>>>      > > for the project.  This is essential in my humble
opinion to
>>>>>
>>>>> allow new
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > developers to focus on the pieces they feel most
equipped to
>>>>>
>>>>> contribute
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > comfortably...
>>>>>>>      > >
>>>>>>>      > > I don't know how the major changes I am suggesting
get
>>>>>
>>>>> introduced and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > discussed in much more detail.  I'm hoping that
perhaps I
>>>
>>> lieue
>>>>>
>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > potentially dismissive email "vote" ... Maybe
a virtual
>>>>>
>>>>> conference would
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > be
>>>>>>>      > > of interest?  I would hope that the participants
of such a
>>>>>
>>>>> convention
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > would
>>>>>>>      > > be the core of a nascent rebirth.  Yes I am volunteering
to
>>>>>
>>>>> help take
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > this
>>>>>>>      > > on if there is interest...
>>>>>>>      > >
>>>>>>>      > > Thanks,
>>>>>>>      > >
>>>>>>>      > > Adam John
>>>>>>>      > > (914) 623-8433
>>>>>>>      > >
>>>>>>>      > > On Aug 30, 2016 12:43 PM, "Zachary Yaro" <zmyaro@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > >
>>>>>>>      > > I am in a similar boat.  I have front-end development
>>>
>>> skills,
>>>>>
>>>>> but I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > struggle to fully understand the back-end functionality
or
>>>
>>> begin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > separating
>>>>>>>      > > the client from the server.
>>>>>>>      > >
>>>>>>>      > > Zachary Yaro
>>>>>>>      > >
>>>>>>>      > > On Aug 30, 2016 11:51 AM, "Thomas Wrobel" <
>>>
>>> darkflame@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > >
>>>>>>>      > > > I have tried on 3 separate occasions to understand
the
>>>>>
>>>>> server. Its
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > > simply not in my skillset and I don't have
the time to
>>>
>>> learn.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > > wish to sound arrogant there, theres learning
needed for
>>>>>
>>>>> anything of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > > course. But its too much investment -  I
want to apply
>>>
>>> skills
>>>>>
>>>>> that I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > > already have. Last time I tried to get into
wave
>>>
>>> development
>>>>>
>>>>> (which
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > > was I admit a few years back) it took me
3 days to even
>>>>>
>>>>> compile the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > > server. Which is frustrating for someone
that just wants
>>>
>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> work on a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > > client.
>>>>>>>      > > >
>>>>>>>      > > > So I am certainly not waiting for permission,
I am waiting
>>>>>
>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > > prerequisite  of a server/client split. I
understand I can
>>>>>
>>>>> neither
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > > demand or expect such a thing. Developers
on a project
>>>
>>> like
>>>>>
>>>>> this just
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > > have to jump in on what they feel like. Nothing
can
>>>
>>> really be
>>>>>
>>>>> expected
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > > and I accept that.
>>>>>>>      > > > I simply am informing there's "lesser" developers
like me
>>>>>
>>>>> that could
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      > > > work on bits if certain other things happen.
>>>>>>>      > > >
>>>>>>>      > >
>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>
>
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