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From Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: A Wavy Future
Date Fri, 18 Mar 2016 17:26:04 GMT
There is at least one commercial successor - https://www.co-meeting.com/
There was also another commercial attempt, which failed but is now open
sourced - https://github.com/jorkey/Wiab.pro

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 12:29 PM Adam Bielski <a_bielski@ymail.com.invalid>
wrote:

> Hiya all!
> I am new to this mailing group and I wanted to further understand the
> limitations OR differences that WiaB provides in comparisson to:
>
>
> https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/pie-computing#/entity
>
> And WHY has there not been a successor (based on the GOOGLE WAVE project)
> that has ever been launched for commercial use!?
> Cheers!
> Adam
>     2:29 środa, 2016-3-16, Evan Hughes <ehugh1@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>
>
>
>
> Sorry many mistakes, currently on mobile. Meant to say "the OS editors arnt
> bad but....."
> On 16/03/2016 11:18 AM, "Evan Hughes" <ehugh1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I had a look at quill and react seperatly dismorning, interestingly the
> > atom editor is built using react and they have done at least one if not
> > more about how they get more performance out of it, moving rendering to
> the
> > gpu and such.
> >
> > Do you think itll actually be possible to remove ot somewhat from the
> > client,  how do we efficently send data to the client that the document
> has
> > changed.
> >
> > Also we must be very careful abiut what editor we choose if we arnt
> > building one inhouse, debugging could destroy us all.
> >
> > But the c-rendering we could do inhouse then we would have a basis for
> > creating a c-editor from scatch. Not that the OS projects are bad but
> its a
> > pretty broad featire set we need.
> > On 16/03/2016 11:00 AM, "Joseph Gentle" <me@josephg.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Sorry, just poking in here -
> >>
> >> A couple of years ago I worked with QuillJS's author to add OT to
> >> quill. Its a rich text editor, which emits user events and Jason (the
> >> author) has a module which interprets those events, builds operations
> >> and can do OT with them. It doesn't support rich embedding of
> >> components yet, but he's working on that now.
> >>
> >> React's Draft-js might also work well.
> >>
> >> -J
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 11:18 AM, Michael MacFadden
> >> <michael.macfadden@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > All,
> >> >
> >> > A few things on the editor.  For one.  I think ACE is a plain text
> >> editor, which I have used for a bunch of things.  Has a great API for
> >> collaboration integration, but it is not rich text, which is what wave
> is
> >> all about.  So I don’t think that will work.
> >> >
> >> > Also, I think perhaps I should clarify the term editor.  I probably
> >> used in inappropriately.
> >> >
> >> > There are two parts to be concerned with.  The first is collaborative
> >> rendering.  If you are just looking at a blip, you can still see it
> change
> >> in real time.  So this would be collaborative rendering.  Then when you
> are
> >> actively editing a blip, you need a collaborative editor.  Both are
> >> important.
> >> >
> >> > The main performance issue comes in two places.  First I may have a
> >> conversation model that contains hundreds of blips.  Some sort of lazy
> >> loading strategy here is probably required and smart attaching and
> >> detaching of listeners.  If you have hundreds of blips all rendered at
> once
> >> and all having to have listeners attached to them because any one of
> them
> >> can change at any time you can run into rendering performance issues.
> >> Secondarily, if you do have lots of people editing lots of blips, much
> of
> >> that will not be “on screen” for a given user, and you don’t want to be
> >> processing all of those events and messing with the DOM if you don’t
> need
> >> to.  So there are performance and complexity issues there.
> >> >
> >> > Then there is the actual editor.  Building a Rich Text Editor is not
> >> trivial (still.. How can this be???).  So you have to deal with all the
> >> issues of building a rich text editor.  Then on top of that you want to
> >> integrate remote cursors, selections, authorship, etc. into that editor.
> >> Most editors do not have that (a few do, and some are easier than
> others to
> >> add that).  So there is complexity here as well.
> >> >
> >> > If you want to use an open source editor you need one that does the
> >> kind of rich text editing you want to do. It needs to either have the
> >> collaboration capabilities (shared cursors, etc.) that you want, or it
> has
> >> to be reasonably easy to implement them yourself.  And it needs to have
> a
> >> good enough eventing API for you to hook into it to capture local
> changes,
> >> and to have API to allow you to drive remote changes into it.
> >> >
> >> > The point being that, the conversation renderer and rich text editor
> is
> >> a very non-trivial component, if the assumption is to roughly replicate
> >> what is there.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > One point I definitely agree with is that the editor itself really
> >> should know nothing about OT.  It should be decoupled and just needs to
> >> have a good API with good events.
> >> >
> >> > ~Michael
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 3/15/16, 10:11 AM, "Pablo Ojanguren" <pablojan@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>Talking about editors I suggest ace from mozilla,
> >> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_%28editor%29
> >> >>
> >> >>BTW, as example, this is an app we are developing on with SwellRT as
> >> >>backend:  http://staging.teem.works , -it is the staging version, you
> >> can
> >> >>play! ;)-
> >> >>
> >> >>2016-03-15 17:12 GMT+01:00 Yuri Z <vega113@gmail.com>:
> >> >>
> >> >>> No, not really. Javascript on client side is enough - this is how
it
> >> was
> >> >>> originally implemented in microwave by antimatter.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 6:08 PM Thomas Wrobel <darkflame@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> > Ah, right. I am all for realtime, merely that I was also happy
to
> >> lose
> >> >>> > it if it meant significantly more simple implementation.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > >>"Otherwise we can use Robot
> >> >>> > >>API - like in https://github.com/vega113/microbox"
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Not keen on RobotAPI as every time I read its use it seems
to need
> >> an
> >> >>> > extra server in the chain/
> >> >>> > ie;
> >> >>> >  ...<>WaveServer <> Google App Engine <>
client
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > It should be possible with the web today to avoid that and
have
> >> >>> > clients connect directly to the wave server no? (hopefully
using
> the
> >> >>> > same protocol as any desktop/mobile client).
> >> >>> > Of course, I assume you could run host both servers on the
same
> >> >>> > hardware, but still seems unnecessary to have that extra step.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > --
> >> >>> > http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site.
> >> >>> > http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really, bad story
> generator.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > On 15 March 2016 at 16:48, Yuri Z <vega113@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >>> > > Yeah, the intention is to have realtime editing. Otherwise
we
> can
> >> use
> >> >>> > Robot
> >> >>> > > API - like in https://github.com/vega113/microbox
> >> >>> > >
> >> >>> > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 5:45 PM Thomas Wrobel <
> >> darkflame@gmail.com>
> >> >>> > wrote:
> >> >>> > >
> >> >>> > >> Does it need to be OT aware on that scale? I thought
that was
> >> only
> >> >>> > >> needed to have fully realtime blip updating rather
then a
> "edit +
> >> >>> > >> submit" system. (whereupon the differences could
be calculated
> >> >>> > >> separately from the editing)
> >> >>> > >> Is the intention then to still have realtime editing
? or is
> this
> >> >>> > >> needed anyway regardless?
> >> >>> > >>
> >> >>> > >> I admit I only know the basics of OT and am vaguely
> remembering a
> >> >>> > >> conversation about realtime blip editing adding complexity
to
> >> things.
> >> >>> > >>
> >> >>> > >> --
> >> >>> > >> http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site.
> >> >>> > >> http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really,
bad story
> >> generator.
> >> >>> > >>
> >> >>> > >>
> >> >>> > >> On 15 March 2016 at 16:30, Yuri Z <vega113@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >>> > >> > Not really. You would need to make it OT aware.
and then make
> >> it
> >> >>> > >> efficient.
> >> >>> > >> > Lot's of effort.
> >> >>> > >> >
> >> >>> > >> > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 5:24 PM Thomas Wrobel
<
> >> darkflame@gmail.com>
> >> >>> > >> wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >
> >> >>> > >> >> As a side, I noticed Michael MacFadden mentioned
building a
> >> rich
> >> >>> text
> >> >>> > >> >> editor in the browser, this much at least
have been done in
> >> GWT
> >> >>> > >> >> libraries;
> >> >>> > >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >>
> >> >>> > >>
> >> >>> >
> >> >>>
> >>
> http://www.gwtproject.org/javadoc/latest/com/google/gwt/user/client/ui/RichTextArea.html
> >> >>> > >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> Its fairly basic, but then, I would assume
to start with at
> >> least
> >> >>> any
> >> >>> > >> >> new wave client should stay fairly basic?
> >> >>> > >> >> --
> >> >>> > >> >> http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site.
> >> >>> > >> >> http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really,
bad story
> >> >>> generator.
> >> >>> > >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> On 15 March 2016 at 15:48, Yuri Z <vega113@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >> > Yeah, we need to re-use the existing
editor. Patches would
> >> be
> >> >>> > great!
> >> >>> > >> >> >
> >> >>> > >> >> > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 4:46 PM Pablo
Ojanguren <
> >> >>> > pablojan@gmail.com>
> >> >>> > >> >> wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >> >
> >> >>> > >> >> >> Hi,
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >> I agree with the dependency hell
issue and the suggestion
> >> for
> >> >>> > >> throwing
> >> >>> > >> >> >> away the GWT client. This would
require a new
> >> client-server API
> >> >>> as
> >> >>> > >> >> >> suggested, however I think a Rest
API won't be enough,
> >> because
> >> >>> > real
> >> >>> > >> >> editing
> >> >>> > >> >> >> needs websocket.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >> I also agree with Michael, developing
a new editor is a
> >> massive
> >> >>> > >> task, so
> >> >>> > >> >> >> we should use an existing one and
plug it in the new API.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >> To write again the server in other
language would be
> >> great, but
> >> >>> I
> >> >>> > >> think
> >> >>> > >> >> it
> >> >>> > >> >> >> requires a huge effort.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >> I will be happy to help in decoupling
the server-client,
> I
> >> can
> >> >>> > >> provide
> >> >>> > >> >> the
> >> >>> > >> >> >> experience from my fork. And I
plan to send some patches
> >> to Wave
> >> >>> > >> soon.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >> These are some slides about my
fork (swellrt) it could
> >> give you
> >> >>> > some
> >> >>> > >> >> ideas:
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >>
> >> >>> > >>
> >> >>> >
> >> >>>
> >>
> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1WFDS_m7eyNjBjcdPs0zH496Y9bMSl0_JnSEYGjxNFn0/edit?usp=sharing
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >>
> >> >>> > >>
> >> >>> >
> >> >>>
> >>
> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18hMYyECo5EmQsrAb8DT6SkO7LksWVJnhdZmqeCsar4c/edit?usp=sharing
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >> btw, I would like to start a business
providing these
> >> SwellRT
> >> >>> > >> services.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >> 2016-03-14 23:27 GMT+01:00 Joseph
Gentle <me@josephg.com
> >:
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> I've been playing with the
idea of starting a company
> >> around a
> >> >>> > >> rewrite
> >> >>> > >> >> of
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> wave for years.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> -J
> >> >>> > >> >> >>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> On Tuesday, 15 March 2016,
Adam Bielski
> >> >>> > <a_bielski@ymail.com.invalid
> >> >>> > >> >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >> >>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > Hiya all!I wish I could
find out who is potentially
> >> >>> interested
> >> >>> > in
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> creating
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > the WAVE for a commercial
service/productwith my seed
> >> >>> > >> startup!Cheers!
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > Adam
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> >    20:23 poniedziałek,
2016-3-14, Zachary Yaro <
> >> >>> > zmyaro@gmail.com
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > <javascript:;>>
napisał(a):
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> >  I am inclined to agree
with Yuri—if the alternative
> >> >>> > >> implementation
> >> >>> > >> >> can
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> be
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > developed in parallel
around the same protocol, that
> >> would
> >> >>> seem
> >> >>> > >> to be
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> the
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > best scenario, but the
existing codebase should be
> kept
> >> >>> because
> >> >>> > >> it is
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > (AFAIK) the most functional
implementation of the
> >> protocol.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > Zachary Yaro
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > On Mar 14, 2016 15:05,
"Yuri Z" <vega113@gmail.com
> >> >>> > >> <javascript:;>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > I think that more
"wavy" projects are nice, but IMO
> it
> >> >>> > doesn't
> >> >>> > >> >> mean we
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > should abandon Apache
Wave as it is now. I agree
> >> there are
> >> >>> a
> >> >>> > >> lot of
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > issues
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > with current code,
but I think there's still value
> as
> >> >>> people
> >> >>> > can
> >> >>> > >> >> see
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> what
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > Wave can potentially
be.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > On Sun, Mar 13, 2016
at 8:46 AM Evan Hughes <
> >> >>> > >> >> wisebaldone@apache.org
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > <javascript:;>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > The link for
those who wish to join, Ill also add
> >> this
> >> >>> link
> >> >>> > >> onto
> >> >>> > >> >> the
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > new
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > website.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > https://www.hipchat.com/gsModF8CY
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > On Sun, 13 Mar
2016 at 12:12 Michael MacFadden <
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > michael.macfadden@gmail.com
<javascript:;>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > Yeah. Chatting
is fine and beneficial. We just
> >> need to
> >> >>> > make
> >> >>> > >> >> sure
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> we
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > capture
key decisions and rationale back in the
> >> list
> >> >>> for
> >> >>> > >> all to
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> see.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > ~Michael
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > On
Mar 12, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Evan Hughes <
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> wisebaldone@apache.org
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > <javascript:;>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > It
does not so as Ive seen other projects
> state
> >> this
> >> >>> > motto
> >> >>> > >> >> "If
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> its
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > not
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > on
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > the
mailing list it didnt happen at all", but
> >> allows
> >> >>> > for
> >> >>> > >> non
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> formal
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > talk
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > and
back and forth discussion realtime. The
> >> Monthly
> >> >>> > >> reports
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> that we
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > talked
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > about
back when we did the hangout session
> >> should
> >> >>> > >> probably be
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > picked
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > up
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > again,
ill add it to the monthly todo's.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > On
Sun, 13 Mar 2016 at 11:58 Michael
> MacFadden <
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > michael.macfadden@gmail.com
<javascript:;>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
One follow up question though. Does hip hat
> >> store
> >> >>> > >> >> conversations
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > in a
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
publicly accessible manner?  If not, we need
> >> to make
> >> >>> > sure
> >> >>> > >> >> key
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > decisions
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
that come out of chats are captured and
> >> discussed on
> >> >>> > the
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> mailing
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > list
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > for
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
all to see.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
~Michael
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>
On Mar 12, 2016, at 7:15 AM, Evan Hughes <
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> wisebaldone@apache.org
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > <javascript:;>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>
I would get infra to make us a hipchat
> >> channel so
> >> >>> we
> >> >>> > >> have
> >> >>> > >> >> some
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > place
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > to
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>
talk casually web interface / irc, but seesm
> >> the
> >> >>> > jira's
> >> >>> > >> >> down.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > Looking
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > to
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>
getting this rolling in some way or another
> >> by mid
> >> >>> > week.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>
~ Evan
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 at 19:48 Evan Hughes <
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > wisebaldone@apache.org
<javascript:;>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>
The client-server protocol would define a
> >> protobuf
> >> >>> > and
> >> >>> > >> >> json
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> rest
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
services
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>
so any language that support protocol
> buffers
> >> >>> would
> >> >>> > be
> >> >>> > >> >> able
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> to
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > make
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > a
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>
client or fallback to the json rest.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 at 19:24 Andreas Kotes
> <
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
count-apache.org@flatline.de <javascript:;>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>
wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
FWIW,
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
I also consider the idea pretty good and
> >> would
> >> >>> want
> >> >>> > >> >> stronger
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > decoupling
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
of server/client. I'd be interested in a
> >> python
> >> >>> > client
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > implementation,
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
mostly for CLI and bot integration.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
Not sure whether doing a client-side C
> >> >>> > implementation
> >> >>> > >> of
> >> >>> > >> >> the
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
communication protocol would be best here
> >> (so
> >> >>> > wrapper
> >> >>> > >> for
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> more
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
languages
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
can follow), or whether native Python
> would
> >> be
> >> >>> > >> better. We
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> need
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
something
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
for non-Java folks in any case, I think.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
Cheers,
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
 count
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>>
On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 10:52:34AM +1000,
> >> Evan
> >> >>> > Hughes
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>>
Thankyou all for your feedback and
> >> expressions
> >> >>> of
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> interests,
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > seems
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
like
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
we
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>>
may be able to develop some teams
> together
> >> to
> >> >>> make
> >> >>> > >> this
> >> >>> > >> >> a
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > faster
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
reality
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>>
than just I. Hopefully we can get some
> more
> >> >>> > people to
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> express
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
interests
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
in
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>>
this way forward.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
--
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
Andreas 'count' Kotes
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
Taming computers for humans since 1990.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
"Don't ask what the world needs. Ask what
> >> makes
> >> >>> you
> >> >>> > >> come
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> alive,
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > and
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > go
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
do
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
it.
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
Because what the world needs is people who
> >> have
> >> >>> > come
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> alive." --
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > Howard
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>
Thurman
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > >> >> >>>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >> >>
> >> >>> > >> >>
> >> >>> > >>
> >> >>> >
> >> >>>
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
>

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