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From John Blossom <jblos...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Wave Kickstarter
Date Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:17:26 GMT
Thanks, Kirill, I look forward to seeing the results!

All the best,

John Blossom

email: jblossom@gmail.com
phone: 203.293.8511
google+: google.com/+JohnBlossom


On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Kirill Kostyuchenko
<kisel2626@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> We still working hard on wave in our company and I can say for sure,
> production ready, scalable wave service will cost more, than $100k. Just
> because we already spent more than half. P2P and crypted protocol are
> really dreams.
>
> Andrew Kaplanov have done completely new protocol with reconnection
> support, server restart, client update support, wave diff support. Multiple
> wavelets support which will allow to handle big waves. We almost done
> dynamic rendering support. Without dynamic rendering it is impossible to
> work with big waves. Production ready service should be absolutelly stable
> and fast. And it is impossible to do it relying on the current protocol and
> renderer.
>
> We will announce our work on the wiab.pro in a month or two. You will be
> able to try new features and check the stability of service. It is really
> more stable with the new protocol, because 90% of errors where in the
> protocol.
>
> If somebody create successfully funded project on kickstarter or so, we can
> make our work opensource (new protocol, dynamic renderer, diff support,
> search, tags) for the amount about $50k.
>
> I think, funding of such project more likely, because we already almost
> 'did the work'.
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 2:25 PM, Upayavira <uv@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In case it helps:
> >
> > http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-month-of-apache-tapestry-5
> >
> > A successful, if smaller kickstarter style campaign. May help you
> > visualise what your 'give backs' and suggested donation sizes might be.
> >
> > Note that this took place within an Apache framework without issues, so
> > it can be done (not that it should - ultimately tests not my decision to
> > make).
> >
> > Upayavira
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 4, 2013, at 08:42 PM, Joseph Gentle wrote:
> > > Will do. As I said, I don't anticipate starting the kickstarter for
> > > about a year, though I want to do preliminary work (prototyping out
> > > some of the protocols and such) now.
> > >
> > > John I agree that (1) and (2) are the most interesting parts. But I'm
> > > not sure that this is the right tool to build *everything* on top of.
> > > We should start with the platform and get people building stuff on top
> > > of it.
> > >
> > > -J
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 12:05 PM, John Blossom <jblossom@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > Joseph,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for chiming in. I'd be interested in getting crowdsourced
> > financing
> > > > for this also. We don't have a major corporation funding our
> > lifestyles to
> > > > enable such work, so we need something.
> > > >
> > > > I am in general agreement with your overall plan, though as I've
> stated
> > > > before, once you have 1) and 2) done right then there's so much more
> > that
> > > > the platform could/should do besides an email replacement. I do think
> > that
> > > > the "internet of things" is a key opportunity for such a
> > communications and
> > > > data management model, merged with secure, network-independent
> > > > communications. Nkommo can't really move forward without that combo.
> > > >
> > > > As for the name, all things are possible once it's on Github, it
> > seems. A
> > > > fresh start might be in order.
> > > >
> > > > Please keep me in the loop, I'd be glad to help push things in this
> > > > direction. Without funding, we're nowhere.
> > > >
> > > > All the best,
> > > >
> > > > John Blossom
> > > >
> > > > email: jblossom@gmail.com
> > > > phone: 203.293.8511
> > > > google+: google.com/+JohnBlossom
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Joseph Gentle <josephg@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I still really want to make the wave platform we've been talking
> about
> > > >> for awhile. I just don't have any time because I need to work to
> eat.
> > > >>
> > > >> So I've spent the last month thinking about running a kickstarter
to
> > > >> fund the work. Christian's email was really timely.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I want arbitrary JSON documents, or arbitrary embedding like we
> talked
> > > >> about a few months ago.
> > > >>
> > > >> I want a protocol based on real P2P algorithms rather than the hacky
> > > >> mess we have at the moment with trees of servers connecting via an
> > > >> XMPP extension
> > > >>
> > > >> I want the same fundamental protocol to work server-server or
> > > >> server-client. The OT stuff should work like git.
> > > >>
> > > >> No single person can maintain our 500k of legacy java code. I want
> to
> > > >> write a better version with much cleaner separation of OT protocol
> and
> > > >> application specifics. I still want a web client, but it should be
> > > >> written in pure javascript.
> > > >>
> > > >> Messages should be cryptographically secure from snooping.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> The way I see it, there's fundamentally three pieces that make up
> > wave:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1. A set of OT primitives which allow peers to generate & interpret
> > > >> operations
> > > >> 2. A platform on top of (1) for exchanging operations between
> > networked
> > > >> peers
> > > >> 3. An application on top of (2) which is trying to replace email
> > > >>
> > > >> These pieces should be separate from one another, and usable in
> other
> > > >> contexts.
> > > >>
> > > >> I have a clear idea of how we can make (1) and (2) work. The OT part
> > > >> we've talked about on the list and I've been slowly prototyping out
> > > >> here: http://github.com/josephg/tp2stuff
> > > >>
> > > >> I have a bunch of applications I want to build on top of a platform
> > > >> like this. For example, I want my text editor, compiler & unit
tests
> > > >> to all talk to one another so my text editor doesn't need
> > > >> language-specific completion or syntax checking, and so my friends
> can
> > > >> jump in and help me code.
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't know what the best way to build (3) is - but I'm more than
> > > >> happy to build the platform that a new kind of email could be built
> on
> > > >> top of. Maybe the current WIAB design is totally fine for that part
> -
> > > >> though I want end-to-end encryption.
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't know when the right time to do this would be. I don't know
> if
> > > >> I should work alone or if we should put a team together (Hi Ali!).
> If
> > > >> I were to do this properly it would take about a month of prep to
> get
> > > >> a kickstarter together, and if it is successful I'd want to quit my
> > > >> job to do it. I think it'd take me about 6 months to a year of work
> to
> > > >> get a stable, secure platform working (probably closer to a year),
> and
> > > >> I'm also not allowed to stay in the US without an employer on my
> visa.
> > > >>
> > > >> The earliest this will probably happen is the end of the year.
> > > >>
> > > >> Kickstarter might also not be the right way to fund it. Cryptocat
> was
> > > >> funded in 2012 mostly by Radio Free Asia's Open Tech Fund[1] to the
> > > >> tune of ~$100k. A kickstarter would give us users (great) and
> > > >> publicity, but the right private sponsor might also work.
> > > >>
> > > >> Maybe the most contentious part of all, I don't think I'd want to
> call
> > > >> it wave. But it really would be the grandchild of what we've been
> > > >> working on all this time.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thats my thoughts. If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears. As I say,
> > > >> I'm keen to build this, but I'm too old to live on ramen in a granny
> > > >> shack. This thing we've been working toward has real value, and
> could
> > > >> be put to great effect if we can actually make it good.
> > > >>
> > > >> -J
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> [1] https://crypto.cat/documents/report-1213.pdf
> > > >> https://www.opentechfund.org/
> > > >>
> >
>

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