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From Michael MacFadden <michael.macfad...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Delving into OT
Date Tue, 30 Jul 2013 03:59:46 GMT
What time is the meeting again?  I had voted on the alternative web site
along with some other folks.  I didn't see any slots that everyone could
meet.

On 7/29/13 6:45 AM, "John Blossom" <jblossom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Michael, will you be able to join us on the Hangout this Wednesday?
>
>All the best,
>
>John Blossom
>
>email: jblossom@gmail.com
>phone: 203.293.8511
>google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
>
>
>On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Michael MacFadden <
>michael.macfadden@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Looks like there were some more votes on the other tool.
>>
>> On 7/24/13 1:25 PM, "John Blossom" <jblossom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Thanks, Michael, Ali, if you could please confirm that you'll be able
>>to
>> >attend, that would be great. Any concerns, please don't hesitate to
>>bring
>> >them up now, thanks.
>> >
>> >All the best,
>> >
>> >John Blossom
>> >
>> >email: jblossom@gmail.com
>> >phone: 203.293.8511
>> >google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
>> >
>> >
>> >On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Joseph Gentle <josephg@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>> >
>> >> Great.
>> >>
>> >> I'd like to ask that everyone who attends has a basic understanding
>>of
>> >> how wave's current OT algorithm works. There are several videos and
>> >> blog posts on the subject. Here's a video of me explaining the same
>> >> algorithm in the context of sharejs:
>> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsfiADbXTPo
>> >> ... but there's many more resources kicking around.
>> >>
>> >> -J
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:48 AM, Bruno Gonzalez (aka stenyak)
>> >> <stenyak@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > I may be able to assist to the hangout too. I've submitted my
>>schedule
>> >> > to the doodle, but can't really guarantee I'll be there.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:40 PM, John Blossom - Shore
>>Communications
>> >> > Inc. <jblossom@shore.com> wrote:
>> >> >> Michael, as long as you, Ari and Joseph can make it, and the
>> >>scheduling
>> >> >> tool said that you can, I think that we'll have the core of the
>> >> discussion.
>> >> >> The objective is not to put on a show as much as it is to get the
>> >>core
>> >> OT
>> >> >> thinkers driving the discussion. Let the ideas drive the interest.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> BTW, I shifted it up a half your, I have a telecon that starts
at
>> >>12.30.
>> >> >> Consider this a kickoff event - let's shoot for somewhere south
>>of an
>> >> >> hour's worth of very productive conversation and then let's start
>> >> thinking
>> >> >> about how to keep the conversations going at a very productive
>>level
>> >>on
>> >> a
>> >> >> more regular basis. I am also totally for more impromptu efforts,
>>but
>> >> for
>> >> >> the sake of the community if we can post our conversations for
>> >> >> community-wide access, that can help.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Best Regards,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> John Blossom
>> >> >> President
>> >> >> Shore Communications Inc.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> where content, technology and people meet. (Salesmark of Shore
>> >> >> Communications Inc.)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> web: shore.com
>> >> >> blog: contentblogger.com
>> >> >> email: jblossom@shore.com
>> >> >> phone: 203.293.8511
>> >> >> fax: 203.663.8259
>> >> >> twitter: jblossom <https://twitter.com/jblossom>
>> >> >> google+: google.com/+JohnBlossom
>> >> >> LinkedIn: John Blossom <http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnblossom>
>> >> >> facebook: John Blossom
>> >> >> skype: jblossom
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Michael MacFadden <
>> >> >> michael.macfadden@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> John,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Again I don't mean to delay the effort. But looking at the
>>attendee
>> >> >>> responses, I only see one person on the list that has agreed
to
>> >>attend
>> >> that
>> >> >>> has really been heavily working OT issues in the last year
or so
>> >> (Joseph).
>> >> >>> So I am not sure what the objectives or the outcome of the
>>meeting
>> >> will be
>> >> >>> with such low participation from OT experts.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> By no means do I mean to diminish any one else's capabilities,
>>but
>> >>if
>> >> the
>> >> >>> intention is to really dig in to OT, then I think we night
need
>> >> additional
>> >> >>> participation to be successful.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ~Michael
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 8:40 AM, "John Blossom - Shore Communications
>> >> Inc." <
>> >> >>> jblossom@shore.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> > I agree wholeheartedly that the entire Apache Wave community
>> >>should
>> >> be
>> >> >>> > excited about participating, and I assume that everyone
on the
>> >>list
>> >> is
>> >> >>> > seeing this and should want to join in. If we have to
>>reschedule,
>> >>no
>> >> >>> > biggie, we're at square zero and it's more about getting
>>people on
>> >> board
>> >> >>> > and brainstorming. If you've been invited already, then
invite
>> >> others who
>> >> >>> > you think should be excited. To that end, here's the link
to
>>the
>> >> event:
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > https://plus.google.com/u/0/+JohnBlossom/posts/KTB6EkxB99q
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > If you're an Apache Wave committer and you miss the event,
then
>> >> you'll be
>> >> >>> > able to view it via YouTube via a link that I'll post
here.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > I do want to start accelerating communications more in
the
>> >> community, but
>> >> >>> > this is a busy week.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Best Regards,
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > John Blossom
>> >> >>> > President
>> >> >>> > Shore Communications Inc.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > where content, technology and people meet. (Salesmark
of Shore
>> >> >>> > Communications Inc.)
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > web: shore.com
>> >> >>> > blog: contentblogger.com
>> >> >>> > email: jblossom@shore.com
>> >> >>> > phone: 203.293.8511
>> >> >>> > fax: 203.663.8259
>> >> >>> > twitter: jblossom <https://twitter.com/jblossom>
>> >> >>> > google+: google.com/+JohnBlossom
>> >> >>> > LinkedIn: John Blossom <http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnblossom>
>> >> >>> > facebook: John Blossom
>> >> >>> > skype: jblossom
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Michael MacFadden <
>> >> >>> > michael.macfadden@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >> I don't want to delay this thing, but are there really
no
>>other
>> >> people
>> >> >>> who
>> >> >>> >> are interested in this?  I think we should really
try to reach
>> >>out
>> >> >>> >> personally to some other folks to see if we can attract
them
>>in.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> ~Michael
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On 7/23/13 7:00 AM, "John Blossom" <jblossom@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>> 1200 ET, btw - bad math.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> All the best,
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> John Blossom
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> email: jblossom@gmail.com
>> >> >>> >>> phone: 203.293.8511
>> >> >>> >>> google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:53 AM, John Blossom
>> >><jblossom@gmail.com>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>> OK, the consensus time/date for the hangout
seems to be
>> >> Wednesday, 31
>> >> >>> >>>> July, 1600 UTC (1000 EDT). I will create and
event later
>>today
>> >>in
>> >> >>> >>>> Hangouts.
>> >> >>> >>>> If you're on the wave-dev list and have a
Google login,
>>please
>> >> forward
>> >> >>> >>>> me
>> >> >>> >>>> your email ID/Google+ ID privately and I will
add you to the
>> >> circle of
>> >> >>> >>>> invitees. I Have Joseph's ID already and I
believe Ali and
>> >>Michael
>> >> >>> also,
>> >> >>> >>>> but if you have a doubt, just send it along.
If you don't
>>make
>> >>the
>> >> >>> >>>> hangout
>> >> >>> >>>> itself, I will be sure to share the link here
for the common
>> >> record.
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> All the best,
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> John Blossom
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> email: jblossom@gmail.com
>> >> >>> >>>> phone: 203.293.8511
>> >> >>> >>>> google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:06 AM, John Blossom
>> >><jblossom@gmail.com
>> >> >
>> >> >>> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> Ali,
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> New tool for me, but worth a try. Here's
the Doodle link:
>> >> >>> >>>>> http://doodle.com/5z7usamgh7kee4gf
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> I am open to other times, but these seem
to be the most
>> >>logical.
>> >> >>> Please
>> >> >>> >>>>> remember that UTC at this time of year
is one hour less
>>ahead
>> >> from
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> >>>>> U.S.
>> >> >>> >>>>> time zones due to Daylight Savings Time
- e.g., ET is UTC+4
>> >>right
>> >> >>> now.
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> All the best,
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> John Blossom
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> email: jblossom@gmail.com
>> >> >>> >>>>> phone: 203.293.8511
>> >> >>> >>>>> google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Ali Lown
<ali@lown.me.uk>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>> I agree that another hangout sounds
fun.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>> John, how about setting up a Doodle
for us to mark some
>>dates
>> >> on?
>> >> >>> >>>>>> (http://doodle.com/)
>> >> >>> >>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>> Ali
>> >> >>> >>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>> On 17 July 2013 15:33, John Blossom
<jblossom@gmail.com>
>> >>wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>>>> Great, Michael, find a date that
works for you that
>>seems to
>> >> match
>> >> >>> >>>>>> with
>> >> >>> >>>>>>> others' interests and I will be
glad to arrange for
>>this. We
>> >> can
>> >> >>> >>>>>> have
>> >> >>> >>>>>> the
>> >> >>> >>>>>>> link available but not make public,
if that helps to
>> >>encourage
>> >> >>> >>>>>> constructive
>> >> >>> >>>>>>> participation.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>> All the best,
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>> John Blossom
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>> email: jblossom@gmail.com
>> >> >>> >>>>>>> phone: 203.293.8511
>> >> >>> >>>>>>> google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 10:30
AM, Michael MacFadden <
>> >> >>> >>>>>>> michael.macfadden@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>> I am definitely interested.
 I will check my schedule
>>for
>> >>next
>> >> >>> >>>>>> week.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>> ~Michael
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>> On 7/16/13 11:02 AM, "John
Blossom" <jblossom@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>> That was my thought, also.
ApacheWavers, please respond
>> >>with
>> >> some
>> >> >>> >>>>>> avails
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>> calibrated to UT+1 for
this week and next week. Time to
>> >>get
>> >> this
>> >> >>> >>>>>> party
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>> started! My L,A. project
is waiting for the funder to
>>come
>> >> >>> >>>>>> through,
>> >> >>> >>>>>> but my
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>> Nkommo project is gaining
steam - hopeful that we'll
>>have
>> >> some
>> >> >>> >>>>>> exciting
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>> announcements fairly soon.
Time to change the world
>>with
>> >> Wave!!!
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>> All the best,
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>> John Blossom
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>> email: jblossom@gmail.com
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>> phone: 203.293.8511
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>> google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at
1:58 PM, Joseph Gentle <
>> >> >>> josephg@gmail.com
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> I've had a busy few
weeks - gearing up to launch our
>> >> product at
>> >> >>> >>>>>> work.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> We should organize
another hangout sometime.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> -J
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 13, 2013
at 7:24 AM, John Blossom - Shore
>> >> >>> >>>>>> Communications
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Inc. <jblossom@shore.com>
wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Soo...how is this
initiative going? How may I help to
>> >>move
>> >> it
>> >> >>> >>>>>> forward?
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> John Blossom
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> President
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Shore Communications
Inc.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> where content,
technology and people meet.
>>(Salesmark of
>> >> Shore
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Communications
Inc.)
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> web: shore.com
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> blog: contentblogger.com
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> email: jblossom@shore.com
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> phone: 203.293.8511
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> fax: 203.663.8259
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> twitter: jblossom
<https://twitter.com/jblossom>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> google+: google.com/+JohnBlossom
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> LinkedIn: John
Blossom
>> >> >>> >>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnblossom>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> facebook: John
Blossom
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> skype: jblossom
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 8,
2013 at 9:43 AM, John Blossom
>> >> >>> >>>>>> <jblossom@gmail.com
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ingenious,
Torben, certainly adds efficiency. John
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul
1, 2013 at 4:38 AM, Torben Weis <
>> >> >>> >>>>>> torben.weis@gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/6/25
Joseph Gentle <josephg@gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
When peers connect, they send each other missing
>> >>ops.
>> >> >>> >>>>>> Figuring
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> out
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
which ops are missing can be surprisingly
>>tricky -
>> >>but
>> >> >>> >>>>>> we'll
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> figure
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
that out later. New ops must be ingested in
>>order,
>> >>so
>> >> >>> >>>>>> we
>> >> >>> >>>>>> always
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ingest
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
an operation after ingesting all of its parents.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just
use a Merkle Tree that is at the same time a
>> >>prefix
>> >> >>> >>>>>> tree with
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> respect
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to the
hashes of the ops (explanation below).
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The bandwidth
usage is O(1) if both clients are in
>> >>sync
>> >> and
>> >> >>> >>>>>> O(log
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> n) if
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> they have
one or few different ops and O(n) in the
>> >>worst
>> >> >>> >>>>>> case,
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> where n
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> in
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the number
of ops.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Constructing
the tree is simple.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Let the
hash function output 20 bytes and let's
>>encode
>> >> this
>> >> >>> >>>>>> in
>> >> >>> >>>>>> hex.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> This
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> results
in a hash-string of 40 hex-characters for
>>each
>> >> >>> >>>>>> operation.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Each node
hashes over the hashes of its children.
>> >> Leaf-nodes
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> correspond to
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> operations
and thus use the hash value of their
>> >> respective
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> operation.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The tree-invariant
is that all siblings on level x
>> >>share
>> >> the
>> >> >>> >>>>>> same
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> prefix
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> x hex-characters.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The tree
is not sent over the network. Instead,
>> >>clients
>> >> >>> >>>>>> start
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> comparing
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hashes
at the root.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Two clients
compare their root hash. If it is
>>equal,
>> >>the
>> >> >>> >>>>>> entire
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> tree is
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
and therefore they are in sync.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If not,
they download all direct children and
>>repeat
>> >>the
>> >> >>> >>>>>> procedure
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> for
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> each
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sub-tree
rooted by one of these children.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> For example,
if child number 3 has a different
>>hash,
>> >>but
>> >> all
>> >> >>> >>>>>> others
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> share
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the same
hash, then we have learned that there are
>> >>one or
>> >> >>> >>>>>> more
>> >> >>> >>>>>> ops
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> with a
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hash of
3xxxx... that are different and need
>>syncing.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Typically
we can limit the depth of the tree to few
>> >> levels.
>> >> >>> >>>>>> 8
>> >> >>> >>>>>> levels
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> already
yield a tree that could store 16^8 possible
>> >>ops.
>> >> So
>> >> >>> >>>>>> in
>> >> >>> >>>>>> the
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> worst
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> case two
clients need to wait for 8 round-trips to
>> >> >>> >>>>>> determine a
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> missing
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> op.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In addition,
each client sends a time stamp. So
>>when
>> >> >>> >>>>>> syncing we
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> report
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> last time
stamp received from this client and ask
>>for
>> >>all
>> >> >>> >>>>>> ops
>> >> >>> >>>>>> this
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> client
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> received
later. If these are few, then simply get
>>them
>> >> (even
>> >> >>> >>>>>> if we
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> know
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> some of
the ops already, because we got them from
>> >>another
>> >> >>> >>>>>> client).
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> If
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> are too
many ops, fall back to the merkle tree.
>>With a
>> >> good
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> approximation
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of RTT
and bandwidth, it is easy to calculate which
>> >> >>> >>>>>> algorithm
>> >> >>> >>>>>> is the
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>> best
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to sync
two clients.
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greetings
>> >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Torben
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Regards/Saludos,
>> >> >      Bruno Gonzalez
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.stenyak.com | stenyak @ irc://irc.freenode.net
>> >>
>>
>>
>>



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