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From Ali Lown <...@lown.me.uk>
Subject Re: Delving into OT
Date Thu, 25 Jul 2013 00:12:12 GMT
I will be there.

Ali
On 24 Jul 2013 16:26, "John Blossom" <jblossom@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Michael, Ali, if you could please confirm that you'll be able to
> attend, that would be great. Any concerns, please don't hesitate to bring
> them up now, thanks.
>
> All the best,
>
> John Blossom
>
> email: jblossom@gmail.com
> phone: 203.293.8511
> google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 1:49 PM, Joseph Gentle <josephg@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Great.
> >
> > I'd like to ask that everyone who attends has a basic understanding of
> > how wave's current OT algorithm works. There are several videos and
> > blog posts on the subject. Here's a video of me explaining the same
> > algorithm in the context of sharejs:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsfiADbXTPo
> > ... but there's many more resources kicking around.
> >
> > -J
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:48 AM, Bruno Gonzalez (aka stenyak)
> > <stenyak@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I may be able to assist to the hangout too. I've submitted my schedule
> > > to the doodle, but can't really guarantee I'll be there.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:40 PM, John Blossom - Shore Communications
> > > Inc. <jblossom@shore.com> wrote:
> > >> Michael, as long as you, Ari and Joseph can make it, and the
> scheduling
> > >> tool said that you can, I think that we'll have the core of the
> > discussion.
> > >> The objective is not to put on a show as much as it is to get the core
> > OT
> > >> thinkers driving the discussion. Let the ideas drive the interest.
> > >>
> > >> BTW, I shifted it up a half your, I have a telecon that starts at
> 12.30.
> > >> Consider this a kickoff event - let's shoot for somewhere south of an
> > >> hour's worth of very productive conversation and then let's start
> > thinking
> > >> about how to keep the conversations going at a very productive level
> on
> > a
> > >> more regular basis. I am also totally for more impromptu efforts, but
> > for
> > >> the sake of the community if we can post our conversations for
> > >> community-wide access, that can help.
> > >>
> > >> Best Regards,
> > >>
> > >> John Blossom
> > >> President
> > >> Shore Communications Inc.
> > >>
> > >> where content, technology and people meet. (Salesmark of Shore
> > >> Communications Inc.)
> > >>
> > >> web: shore.com
> > >> blog: contentblogger.com
> > >> email: jblossom@shore.com
> > >> phone: 203.293.8511
> > >> fax: 203.663.8259
> > >> twitter: jblossom <https://twitter.com/jblossom>
> > >> google+: google.com/+JohnBlossom
> > >> LinkedIn: John Blossom <http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnblossom>
> > >> facebook: John Blossom
> > >> skype: jblossom
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Michael MacFadden <
> > >> michael.macfadden@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> John,
> > >>>
> > >>> Again I don't mean to delay the effort. But looking at the attendee
> > >>> responses, I only see one person on the list that has agreed to
> attend
> > that
> > >>> has really been heavily working OT issues in the last year or so
> > (Joseph).
> > >>> So I am not sure what the objectives or the outcome of the meeting
> > will be
> > >>> with such low participation from OT experts.
> > >>>
> > >>> By no means do I mean to diminish any one else's capabilities, but
if
> > the
> > >>> intention is to really dig in to OT, then I think we night need
> > additional
> > >>> participation to be successful.
> > >>>
> > >>> ~Michael
> > >>>
> > >>> On Jul 23, 2013, at 8:40 AM, "John Blossom - Shore Communications
> > Inc." <
> > >>> jblossom@shore.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > I agree wholeheartedly that the entire Apache Wave community should
> > be
> > >>> > excited about participating, and I assume that everyone on the
list
> > is
> > >>> > seeing this and should want to join in. If we have to reschedule,
> no
> > >>> > biggie, we're at square zero and it's more about getting people
on
> > board
> > >>> > and brainstorming. If you've been invited already, then invite
> > others who
> > >>> > you think should be excited. To that end, here's the link to the
> > event:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > https://plus.google.com/u/0/+JohnBlossom/posts/KTB6EkxB99q
> > >>> >
> > >>> > If you're an Apache Wave committer and you miss the event, then
> > you'll be
> > >>> > able to view it via YouTube via a link that I'll post here.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I do want to start accelerating communications more in the
> > community, but
> > >>> > this is a busy week.
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Best Regards,
> > >>> >
> > >>> > John Blossom
> > >>> > President
> > >>> > Shore Communications Inc.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > where content, technology and people meet. (Salesmark of Shore
> > >>> > Communications Inc.)
> > >>> >
> > >>> > web: shore.com
> > >>> > blog: contentblogger.com
> > >>> > email: jblossom@shore.com
> > >>> > phone: 203.293.8511
> > >>> > fax: 203.663.8259
> > >>> > twitter: jblossom <https://twitter.com/jblossom>
> > >>> > google+: google.com/+JohnBlossom
> > >>> > LinkedIn: John Blossom <http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnblossom>
> > >>> > facebook: John Blossom
> > >>> > skype: jblossom
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Michael MacFadden <
> > >>> > michael.macfadden@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> >> I don't want to delay this thing, but are there really no
other
> > people
> > >>> who
> > >>> >> are interested in this?  I think we should really try to reach
out
> > >>> >> personally to some other folks to see if we can attract them
in.
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> ~Michael
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> On 7/23/13 7:00 AM, "John Blossom" <jblossom@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>> 1200 ET, btw - bad math.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> All the best,
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> John Blossom
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> email: jblossom@gmail.com
> > >>> >>> phone: 203.293.8511
> > >>> >>> google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:53 AM, John Blossom <
> jblossom@gmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>>> OK, the consensus time/date for the hangout seems
to be
> > Wednesday, 31
> > >>> >>>> July, 1600 UTC (1000 EDT). I will create and event
later today
> in
> > >>> >>>> Hangouts.
> > >>> >>>> If you're on the wave-dev list and have a Google login,
please
> > forward
> > >>> >>>> me
> > >>> >>>> your email ID/Google+ ID privately and I will add
you to the
> > circle of
> > >>> >>>> invitees. I Have Joseph's ID already and I believe
Ali and
> Michael
> > >>> also,
> > >>> >>>> but if you have a doubt, just send it along. If you
don't make
> the
> > >>> >>>> hangout
> > >>> >>>> itself, I will be sure to share the link here for
the common
> > record.
> > >>> >>>>
> > >>> >>>> All the best,
> > >>> >>>>
> > >>> >>>> John Blossom
> > >>> >>>>
> > >>> >>>> email: jblossom@gmail.com
> > >>> >>>> phone: 203.293.8511
> > >>> >>>> google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
> > >>> >>>>
> > >>> >>>>
> > >>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:06 AM, John Blossom <
> jblossom@gmail.com
> > >
> > >>> >>>> wrote:
> > >>> >>>>
> > >>> >>>>> Ali,
> > >>> >>>>>
> > >>> >>>>> New tool for me, but worth a try. Here's the Doodle
link:
> > >>> >>>>> http://doodle.com/5z7usamgh7kee4gf
> > >>> >>>>>
> > >>> >>>>> I am open to other times, but these seem to be
the most
> logical.
> > >>> Please
> > >>> >>>>> remember that UTC at this time of year is one
hour less ahead
> > from
> > >>> the
> > >>> >>>>> U.S.
> > >>> >>>>> time zones due to Daylight Savings Time - e.g.,
ET is UTC+4
> right
> > >>> now.
> > >>> >>>>>
> > >>> >>>>> All the best,
> > >>> >>>>>
> > >>> >>>>> John Blossom
> > >>> >>>>>
> > >>> >>>>> email: jblossom@gmail.com
> > >>> >>>>> phone: 203.293.8511
> > >>> >>>>> google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
> > >>> >>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>
> > >>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Ali Lown <ali@lown.me.uk>
> > wrote:
> > >>> >>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>> I agree that another hangout sounds fun.
> > >>> >>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>> John, how about setting up a Doodle for us
to mark some dates
> > on?
> > >>> >>>>>> (http://doodle.com/)
> > >>> >>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>> Ali
> > >>> >>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>> On 17 July 2013 15:33, John Blossom <jblossom@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>> >>>>>>> Great, Michael, find a date that works
for you that seems to
> > match
> > >>> >>>>>> with
> > >>> >>>>>>> others' interests and I will be glad to
arrange for this. We
> > can
> > >>> >>>>>> have
> > >>> >>>>>> the
> > >>> >>>>>>> link available but not make public, if
that helps to
> encourage
> > >>> >>>>>> constructive
> > >>> >>>>>>> participation.
> > >>> >>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>> All the best,
> > >>> >>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>> John Blossom
> > >>> >>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>> email: jblossom@gmail.com
> > >>> >>>>>>> phone: 203.293.8511
> > >>> >>>>>>> google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
> > >>> >>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Michael
MacFadden <
> > >>> >>>>>>> michael.macfadden@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> >>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>> I am definitely interested.  I will
check my schedule for
> next
> > >>> >>>>>> week.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>> ~Michael
> > >>> >>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>> On 7/16/13 11:02 AM, "John Blossom"
<jblossom@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>> >>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>> That was my thought, also. ApacheWavers,
please respond
> with
> > some
> > >>> >>>>>> avails
> > >>> >>>>>>>>> calibrated to UT+1 for this week
and next week. Time to get
> > this
> > >>> >>>>>> party
> > >>> >>>>>>>>> started! My L,A. project is waiting
for the funder to come
> > >>> >>>>>> through,
> > >>> >>>>>> but my
> > >>> >>>>>>>>> Nkommo project is gaining steam
- hopeful that we'll have
> > some
> > >>> >>>>>> exciting
> > >>> >>>>>>>>> announcements fairly soon. Time
to change the world with
> > Wave!!!
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>> All the best,
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>> John Blossom
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>> email: jblossom@gmail.com
> > >>> >>>>>>>>> phone: 203.293.8511
> > >>> >>>>>>>>> google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 1:58 PM,
Joseph Gentle <
> > >>> josephg@gmail.com
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> I've had a busy few weeks
- gearing up to launch our
> > product at
> > >>> >>>>>> work.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> We should organize another
hangout sometime.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> -J
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 7:24
AM, John Blossom - Shore
> > >>> >>>>>> Communications
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> Inc. <jblossom@shore.com>
wrote:
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Soo...how is this initiative
going? How may I help to
> move
> > it
> > >>> >>>>>> forward?
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards,
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> John Blossom
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> President
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Shore Communications Inc.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> where content, technology
and people meet. (Salesmark of
> > Shore
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Communications Inc.)
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> web: shore.com
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> blog: contentblogger.com
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> email: jblossom@shore.com
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> phone: 203.293.8511
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> fax: 203.663.8259
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> twitter: jblossom <https://twitter.com/jblossom>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> google+: google.com/+JohnBlossom
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> LinkedIn: John Blossom
> > >>> >>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnblossom>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> facebook: John Blossom
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> skype: jblossom
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at
9:43 AM, John Blossom
> > >>> >>>>>> <jblossom@gmail.com
> > >>> >>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ingenious, Torben,
certainly adds efficiency. John
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 1, 2013
at 4:38 AM, Torben Weis <
> > >>> >>>>>> torben.weis@gmail.com>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/6/25 Joseph
Gentle <josephg@gmail.com>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When
peers connect, they send each other missing
> ops.
> > >>> >>>>>> Figuring
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> out
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
ops are missing can be surprisingly tricky -
> but
> > >>> >>>>>> we'll
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> figure
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
out later. New ops must be ingested in order,
> so
> > >>> >>>>>> we
> > >>> >>>>>> always
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ingest
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
operation after ingesting all of its parents.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just use a
Merkle Tree that is at the same time a
> prefix
> > >>> >>>>>> tree with
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> respect
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to the hashes
of the ops (explanation below).
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The bandwidth
usage is O(1) if both clients are in sync
> > and
> > >>> >>>>>> O(log
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> n) if
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> they have one
or few different ops and O(n) in the
> worst
> > >>> >>>>>> case,
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> where n
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> in
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the number of
ops.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Constructing the
tree is simple.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Let the hash function
output 20 bytes and let's encode
> > this
> > >>> >>>>>> in
> > >>> >>>>>> hex.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> This
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> results in a hash-string
of 40 hex-characters for each
> > >>> >>>>>> operation.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Each node hashes
over the hashes of its children.
> > Leaf-nodes
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> correspond to
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> operations and
thus use the hash value of their
> > respective
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> operation.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The tree-invariant
is that all siblings on level x
> share
> > the
> > >>> >>>>>> same
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> prefix
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> x hex-characters.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The tree is not
sent over the network. Instead, clients
> > >>> >>>>>> start
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> comparing
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hashes at the
root.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Two clients compare
their root hash. If it is equal,
> the
> > >>> >>>>>> entire
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> tree is
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> equal and therefore
they are in sync.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, they download
all direct children and repeat
> the
> > >>> >>>>>> procedure
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> for
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> each
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sub-tree rooted
by one of these children.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, if
child number 3 has a different hash,
> but
> > all
> > >>> >>>>>> others
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> share
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the same hash,
then we have learned that there are one
> or
> > >>> >>>>>> more
> > >>> >>>>>> ops
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> with a
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hash of 3xxxx...
that are different and need syncing.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Typically we can
limit the depth of the tree to few
> > levels.
> > >>> >>>>>> 8
> > >>> >>>>>> levels
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> already yield
a tree that could store 16^8 possible
> ops.
> > So
> > >>> >>>>>> in
> > >>> >>>>>> the
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> worst
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> case two clients
need to wait for 8 round-trips to
> > >>> >>>>>> determine a
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> missing
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> op.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In addition, each
client sends a time stamp. So when
> > >>> >>>>>> syncing we
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> report
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> the
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> last time stamp
received from this client and ask for
> all
> > >>> >>>>>> ops
> > >>> >>>>>> this
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> client
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> received later.
If these are few, then simply get them
> > (even
> > >>> >>>>>> if we
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> know
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> some of the ops
already, because we got them from
> another
> > >>> >>>>>> client).
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> If
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> there
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> are too many ops,
fall back to the merkle tree. With a
> > good
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> approximation
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of RTT and bandwidth,
it is easy to calculate which
> > >>> >>>>>> algorithm
> > >>> >>>>>> is the
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>> best
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to sync two clients.
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greetings
> > >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Torben
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
> > >>>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Regards/Saludos,
> > >      Bruno Gonzalez
> > >
> > > http://www.stenyak.com | stenyak @ irc://irc.freenode.net
> >
>

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