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From Joseph Gentle <>
Subject Re: Future of Apache wave [Was: Re: Advantages of P2P messaging?]
Date Tue, 11 Jun 2013 23:54:54 GMT
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Dave <> wrote:
> Protobuffs in XMPP might not be the most elegant wire protocol, but they're
> both proven, solid messaging technologies.  I can see appeal in replacing
> them, but for my money the path of least resistance would be to improve
> these implementations.

They are???

Because you know, wave federation has _never_ worked reliably. I gave
a talk back in 2010 explaining how to set up federation in a virtual
machine. I practiced my talk a few times, and sometimes (with exactly
the same certificates, configuration files, software & OS) it simply
wouldn't work. Why not? Two and a half YEARS have passed and still
nobody knows.

XMPP server extensions are supposed to be a standard, but last I
checked, only a couple of XMPP servers even half-work with wave in a
box. Why? Because everyone has implemented the XMPP standard in
slightly different, incompatible ways. Are the bugs in WIAB itself or
in the XMPP servers? I don't know! The broken behaviour is so
complicated that nobody understands how it works, let alone what the
problem is.

Its pretty clear that we can't maintain federation based on an XMPP
extension. We can't even fix obvious, repeatable bugs.

And we don't even use XMPP for anything! I thought we'd at least use
the XMPP server to log in users but we don't even do that - we
maintain our own user list. Its like we're using XMPP as a buggy, hard
to configure TCP stream that nobody understands. I guess at least it
checks our SSL certificates. Whoopie.

I don't understand all the hero worship of XMPP. Has anyone else tried
to actually read the spec? There's a reason Google, Apple, Facebook,
etc don't use XMPP. Its not because they hate freedom. Its because
XMPP is awful.

If you want to convince anyone that its a 'proven, solid messaging
technology', you should start by fixing our XMPP extension code.

I think we should kill it with fire.


> Dave

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