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From Patrick Hunt <>
Subject Re: Graduation?
Date Fri, 07 Jun 2013 18:45:49 GMT
On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Flavio Junqueira <> wrote:
> I have some comments inline:
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 6:21 PM, Patrick Hunt <> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 2:04 AM, ant elder <> wrote:
>>> Hi Patrick thanks for replying. Some comments and questions inline.
>> Thank you ant for checking in. :-)
>>> On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Patrick Hunt <> wrote:
>>>> I've been hesitant to push for graduation for the following reasons:
>>>> 1) only one new committer has been added to the project since it's inception.
>>> Have there been contributors that you feel might have merited being
>>> made a committer but weren't? What we're looking for is that the
>>> podling is open to new people, from the Incubator policy page - "new
>>> committers are admitted according to ASF practices" -
>> I'd turn that around and ask the community to ask themselves this
>> question. Who do they want as a new committer? (keep in mind that
>> discussion of personnel matters should typically be conducted on the
>> private list).
> I haven't observed the degree of commitment I have observed when we invite new committers
in other projects. At the same time, I have been seeing more messages flowing on the list,
which is very positive. Perhaps in the near future we will have the opportunity to invite
new committers.
>>>> 2) there have only been two releases. The second of which required 5
>>>> release candidates.
>>> Many podlings only do one release before graduating and that often
>>> requires a few RCs. Looking back in the archives at the S4 RC votes i
>>> think they will have learnt a lot about how to do releases from all
>>> the respins. Also, some of these haven't been helped but the vagaries
>>> of the Incubator release voting which will be avoided after
>>> graduation.
>> Absolutely. As I mentioned I think the community is doing fine. I
>> wouldn't stand in the way of graduation if others were interested, I
>> just don't personally think they are ready for the reasons I stated -
>> hence why I haven't pushed for graduation.
> The release process doesn't concern me as much. It took this community a while to produce
releases, but other than that I think they are quality releases.

I agree, the releases have been good. However IMO having multiple
release candidates indicates that there were issues that everyone
(PPMC) thought were fine, but still had to be addressed (based on
further feedback from IPMC). I'm part of the PPMC and I missed some of
those details, so it's not really a blame issue, but I'm just saying
the process/content itself is still in flux. That will smooth out as
folks get more experience and there's more visibility on the
process/artifact. Good to have incubator insight during that process.

>>> How would you feel if the mentors were included in the graduated PMC
>>> to help ensure future releases are done well and any potential new
>>> committers get noticed, would that make graduation any easier?
>> Many of the projects I've mentored at Apache have included me on the
>> graduated PMC. Some have not. I'm fine either way, in this case it
>> might help...
>> However -- my goal for graduation of a project is that they are mostly
>> self sufficient wrt Apache process and community building. This allows
>> me to step back, I can then focus on helping other, new projects
>> through the incubation process. If I need to continue to mentor a
>> project once it's graduated it sort of defeats the purpose of calling
>> yourself a TLP from my perspective. i.e. you're ready to run your own
>> project w/o much mentoring.
> I have a slightly different perspective here, although I'm certainly not in the same
position as the two of you. It might nice to have Pat in the PMC not to keep Pat mentoring
the project, but instead to have Pat providing guidance when some experience makes a difference.
This is my personal view, though.

That's typically what I've done with other podlings when they
graduate. Sometimes I do catch issues but I'm certainly not as
vigilant as I am in my mentor role.


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